SoundStage’s review of Dutch&Dutch’s 8C

[HammerSandwich]

OTOH, it's not the diameter of the woofer that's the only factor, it's also the cabinet itself, which is no doubt wider and most certainly taller than 8". I'm not sure exactly how tall the cabinet is, but assuming it's about 18-20" which looks about right at a glance, some directivity in this range and possibly some dips due to diffraction effects are a plausible partial explanation IMHO.

I almost commented on the effective size of the 2 drivers & baffle. Anyhow, we're on the same page here.

All measurements have limitations, and this example highlights how difficult it is to parse absolute truth out of imperfect data. Many of @Cosmik's earlier comments apply.

 

[PierreV]

So we have
- some noise reports
- at least one reliability issue (which is the main worry with active)
- some good but not really mind-blowing measurements
- a house sound/tuned response curve
- dependency on the cloud to use/configure
- some beta, unfinished software
- new players on the market
- the Kii that's really a big speaker when it becomes a big speaker, at the price of a big speaker.

Not disputing the notion that active is the way of the future or saying that the 8C/Kii aren't great speakers but it seems we are in the early stages, no?

I was re-reading the audio-critic the other day and couldn't help noticing how many trendy brands of the past have disappeared.

 

[andreasmaaan]

I think these measurements are actually very good. In terms of distortion, I don't think you can expect miracles out of small-ish woofers in a (relatively) very small sealed box - pushed to play well below what must be the box resonance frequency - or from an effectively open-baffle midrange pushed to play down to 100Hz.

Other than that, the frequency response seems to exhibit a slight house curve, but is very flat compared to most speakers, and the polar response is head and shoulders above most of the competition.

In the end, the 8C delivers on its promises regarding polar response and bass extension, which are the two major claims it makes in comparison to other speakers its size.

 

[PierreV]

I think these measurements are actually very good. In terms of distortion, I don't think you can expect miracles out of small-ish woofers in a (relatively) very small sealed box, or from an effectively open-baffle midrange pushed to play down to 100Hz.

Oh, I agree... for small boxes that's great on the whole. I am genuinely interested in those things, but there's this constant background noise of people saying they are the best measuring speakers ever, or that one is stupid to buy passive, that they improve a lot on big speakers, that reliability isn't an issue, etc... Apparently a very good product, but so much hype... Will maybe drive to the Netherlands to have a listen (I wasn't convinced by the Kiis at all).

 

[Juhazi]

If a 13.000€/pair 3-way has similar distortion to a desktop-monitor 2-way, I''m not happy. The problem seems to be cardioid midrange, low bass distortion is OK.

Let's compare 8c to a regular 3-way Revel Performa F206 with double 6½" woofers (3500€/pair) at 90db (lower)

But hey, its says that 8c is at 2m and Revel at 1m- what the heck? In text they say measured at 2m for both, is this just a typo error in the graph?

 

[Purité Audio]

Oh, I agree... for small boxes that's great on the whole. I am genuinely interested in those things, but there's this constant background noise of people saying they are the best measuring speakers ever, or that one is stupid to buy passive, that they improve a lot on big speakers, that reliability isn't an issue, etc... Apparently a very good product, but so much hype... Will maybe drive to the Netherlands to have a listen (I wasn't convinced by the Kiis at all).

I would actually compare them against your current loudspeakers in your room, the improvement in SQ will be immediately obvious.
Keith

 

[svart-hvitt]

It strikes me: Is the Dutch & Dutch 8C sort of a two-way speaker with a subwoofer attached to it, to the extent that the sub is a separate part of the sound system, where the sound system’s overall success in a room (its integration of sub and higher frequencies) depends on a set of fixed assumptions of the room?

Normally, a full range speaker is a system that incorporates the idea of a single source. DD8C seems to have cut the normal link to the sub system, betting that this cutting of a normal entity into two entities will perform better in a room. The question is then: In which rooms will it perform (better) than a conventional speaker, with or without EQ?

 

[PierreV]

I would actually compare them against your current loudspeakers in your room, the improvement in SQ will be immediately obvious.
Keith

Yes, I know you would. You have said this before.

 

[svart-hvitt]

Go back to the start of the thread and reread, it's all there.

P.S. When you see a measurement with an * go and read the qualification of that *.

Well, my confusion was shared by sound engineers who paid €10k for this engineering. So Dutch cannot be accused of being very explicit on their system’s pros and cons, setup in different room etc.

What is noteworthy, too, is the Gearslutz discussion on how a recent firmware update changed the Dutch & Dutch 8C sound in a way that may be related to this discussion on lower frequencies being incorporated in the room.

So this seems to be an avantgarde system that is somewhat difficult to fully understand, wouldn’t you agree?

 

[Purité Audio]

Yes, I know you would. You have said this before.

Because hearing a loudspeaker in isolation in an unfamiliar acoustic really doesn’t tell you that much .
To be frank that is how I sell them, measure the room set them up next to a customers system, implement a filter or two if necessary and then leave the customer to it.
The advantages of these speakers are obvious.
Keith

 

[Soniclife]

If a 13.000€/pair 3-way has similar distortion to a desktop-monitor 2-way, I''m not happy. The problem seems to be cardioid midrange, low bass distortion is OK.

Let's compare 8c to a regular 3-way Revel Performa F206 with double 6½" woofers (3500€/pair) at 90db (lower)

But hey, its says that 8c is at 2m and Revel at 1m- what the heck? In text they say measured at 2m for both, is this just a typo error in the graph?

They were probably both at 2m, the other tests I checked were as well. Is 90db at 2m the standard for distortion measurements? It seems a higher level than critical listening would be done at.

The f206 will be crossed over to their bass drivers at a higher frequency, which helps the distortion stay low. Would be interesting to see these and the 8c measured in room at the LP and see if they maintain the distortion lead, or the cardioid room interaction swings it back to the 8c. Would need to be done in several rooms to really show a pattern.

 

[andreasmaaan]

They were probably both at 2m, the other tests I checked were as well. Is 90db at 2m the standard for distortion measurements? It seems a higher level than critical listening would be done at.

90dB @ 2m is LOUD I think they are interested in stressing the speaker slightly here.

Vance Dickason at Voice Coil measures at 94dB/1m for home audio drivers and 104dB/1m for pro drivers. Also louder than most normal listening (at least for home audio).

Mixing and mastering would normally be at no more than 83dB/1m, which is a moderate level.

 

[Soniclife]

I think they are interested in stressing the speaker slightly here.

I think so too, but it devalues the test somewhat, if they did a more normal listening level as well it would mean more.

 

[andreasmaaan]

I think so too, but it devalues the test somewhat, if they did a more normal listening level as well it would mean more.

I agree, but otoh if they are only going to measure distortion at one spl, better make it a higher one than a lower one.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Let's compare 8c to a regular 3-way Revel Performa F206 with double 6½" woofers (3500€/pair) at 90db (lower)

How curious that you would choose the F206 for comparison with the 8c. I have a pair of f206s on order..............

 

[DDF]

Clearly the above design features won't properly work in an anechoic chamber, so not sure how accurate the measurements can be or what objective conclusions can be drawn....

My in-room nearfield measurements validates the design as described, even in my cluttered environment

.... My issue is that there is too much high frequency energy coming from most speaker brands

Hi Mitch
The anechoic chamber measurement (4pi) will understate the response ~5-6 dB below 100Hz compared how D&D wants them used in room (psuedo 2pi/against wall). Your in room measure seems pretty consistent with that, and modes aside isn't too far off the Harman steady state room targets in the bass.

Thinking about it more, the 8C's may have that gentle house curve rise from 1 kHz down to 100 Hz to have the cardiod subjectively sound closer to the in room response of a standard 4pi to 2pi transitioning direct radiator which is usually used to produce recordings.

For sure an in-room steady-state response flat above the midrange would be unpleasantly bright. The 8Cs large waveguide will also reduce off axis treble energy, which I think you'd favour.

 

[DDF]

I'm interested in what causes the dip from 100 to 500 Hz with them backwards, do the cardioid vents only work up to 500hz, before they blend into normal directivity?

Its the low pass of the subs (looks like 3rd order acoustic) followed by the cardiod acting less cardiod and bleeding through to the back before the mid gets directional. This would be easier to see with 45 degree horizontal (from the back) measurements.

 

[restorer-john]

Not disputing the notion that active is the way of the future or saying that the 8C/Kii aren't great speakers but it seems we are in the early stages, no?

I can't see these being anything other than transitional products. A bit like the those wretched CFLs (Compact Fluorescent Lights) that promised to be so much better than tungsten globes and ultimately were just total crap when compared to what 'game changer' came next- LEDs.

The next stage is these powered speakers come supplied with a calibrated microphone and a nice long lead that plugs into the speakers and they self DSP calibrate to the actual room from the listening postion. No more preset switches and guesswork. Bring some new furniture in or hang a tapestry- plug the mic in and calibrate again. Easy. Fill the room up with hard drinking audiophile friends- calibrate again. No standalone Mini-DSP stuff- it's all in the speaker already, just give it a self calibration routine and a mic input.

Just like low-cost traction/hill descent control on AWD vehicles is a simple adaption of the already existing ABS system- a simple bit of code to give all that extra functionality.

I was re-reading the audio-critic the other day and couldn't help noticing how many trendy brands of the past have disappeared.

Never ending carousel of flavor-of-the-month gear, rapturous reviews claiming giant-killing, game-changing, paradigm-shifting, skirt-lifting improvements.

 

[DDF]

The next stage is these powered speakers come supplied with a calibrated microphone and a nice long lead that plugs into the speakers and they self DSP calibrate to the actual room from the listening postion.

Lol, so the technology would finally catch up to my modest Yami HT receiver (YPO) or Sonos sound bar.

Its funny, technology we put into telephones 25 years ago (DSP level dependent eq and good sounding compressors) finally got into bluetooth speakers 5 years back but having it added to the "high end" now is perceived as bleeding edge. Ay carumba.

 

[Juhazi]

Sounstage/NRC measurent the 8c with "open space" settings. This compared to "near-wall" changes bass/mid-treble delay and levels, perhaps also curves. Those measurements are not applicable to near-wall performance and I am pretty sure that midrange distortion is lower with near-wall settings too. Perhaps mitchco has some distortion measurements to compare?

This is what NRC says about it's distortion measurements:
Please note: an SPL level of 90dB measured anechoically is very loud and considered far beyond normal listening levels, particularly for small loudspeakers. To give more information for real-world listening levels, if it appears that the speaker is being strained beyond its output abilities at this level we will provide a second measurement at at lower SPL (the SPL level will be printed with the chart).

Purpose: Measures THD+N output at discrete frequency intervals for above-normal listening levels. Please note that 90dB output at a 2-meter distance is equivalent to an SPL level of 96dB at a 1-meter distance.

What it tells you: Audibility of distortion varies as to type of distortion and also the frequency at which it is occurring. Distortion measurements for loudspeakers are usually many times that of electronics (i.e., amplifiers, receivers, etc.). Furthermore, certain types of distortions are more audible than others and the audibility of that also depends on the frequency. Our distortion measurements give a general indication of how much distortion is occurring for a given output level at above normal listening levels. Distortion levels will be less (sometimes much less if the speaker is being stressed beyond capabilities at 90dB) at lower SPLs.

Dutc&Dutch speak a lot about cardioid response in marketing, but like we see in measurements, it is fully cardioid only in a small range of the midrange driver. Upper end of the midrange gets directive because of the membrane width when it approaches crossing to the waveguide tweeter which is practically silent bacwards. Then we have the backside woofers that radiate in monopole pattern up to when they cross to cardioid mid. Combination of monopole and cardioid patterns lead to a rapidly changing pattern around 100-300Hz, which is manipulated by changing the delay of mid-tweeter combo relative to bass. But this also makes it difficult to compare/evaluate spl measurements vs. perceived room response

In this manufacturer's graph we the output of just the mid-tweeter combo, and the basic difference to normal speakers is 200-500Hz range which has unusually high and constant directivity. Typical narrow-baffle speakers "leak" much more energy widely sideways and backwards there (60-180deg).

So, the 8c's directivity pattern resembles a typical 15"+ shallow horn PA speaker (like JBL M2).

And JBL M2

Kii Audio Three has non-typical directivity in low midrange too, with a closed box mid and set-back side woofers and dsp with obviously some delay control. My guess is that its midrange directivity is lower but also with lower distortion. Stereophile has measured it, but NRC not.