Sound stage depth?

[dasdoing]

With other genres it is less significant anyhow, and often poinless since it's simply different tracks mixed together.

depth is still crucial, else you get an overcrowded mix

 

[pablolie]

depth is still crucial, else you get an overcrowded mix

Definitely giving a recording any depth is very nice, but for me in classical it absolutely vital and mandatory. Listen to Karl Muenchinger's arrangement of Pachelbel's Canon... it's layers of fun. [320k mode recommended ]

 

[Cex]

A stupid question,

I've tried out my brothers Sony STR-DH590 AVR. Yes, I know, I know... The AVRs doesn't sound good.. But, tried the "front surround" mode, which is primarily aimed at using 2 speakers to create a virtual surround using front speakers. When using for music, it also sound to create a deep soundstage and clear separation of instruments! I know it's kind of artifitial, but it sounded good.

I have not ordered another AVR for myself, but looking for a proper DSP to provide such effect. Would a miniDSP Flex support such function, or any recommendation for such? Looking for a separate DSP or a DSP/DAC combo?

 

[Cote Dazur]

A stupid question,

There is no such thing

The AVRs doesn't sound good..

If operated within it capacities, an AVR will sound perfectly fine.

But, tried the "front surround" mode, which is primarily aimed at using 2 speakers to create a virtual surround using front speakers. When using for music, it also sound to create a deep soundstage and clear separation of instruments! I know it's kind of artifitial,

Every AVR has a stereo mode, it will feed the 2 front speakers. If those speakers are well positioned in relation to where you sit, you will hear “ a deep soundstage and clear separation of instruments”, much better than adding artificial sound to a probably already good stereo recording.

 

[Cex]

There is no such thing

If operated within it capacities, an AVR will sound perfectly fine.

Every AVR has a stereo mode, it will feed the 2 front speakers. If those speakers are well positioned in relation to where you sit, you will hear “ a deep soundstage and clear separation of instruments”, much better than adding artificial sound to a probably already good stereo recording.

Thx!

The thing was.. it did not sound so good in pure direct mode, so I assume the "front surround" mode did some tricks.. and now looking for a proper way (and device) to create such impact.

 

[dasdoing]

Thx!

The thing was.. it did not sound so good in pure direct mode, so I assume the "front surround" mode did some tricks.. and now looking for a proper way (and device) to create such impact.

I guess it is a stereo widning effect like the one most TVs are using. you would have to find out the algorythm used in said AVR

 

[Cote Dazur]

it did not sound so good in pure direct mode, so I assume the "front surround" mode did some tricks

Yes, tricks is a very good choice of word. When speakers are poorly positioned, sometime it can be "pleasant" other time it is just weird, in all cases, we are miles away from any "fidelity".

 

[dasdoing]

A stupid question,

I've tried out my brothers Sony STR-DH590 AVR. Yes, I know, I know... The AVRs doesn't sound good.. But, tried the "front surround" mode, which is primarily aimed at using 2 speakers to create a virtual surround using front speakers. When using for music, it also sound to create a deep soundstage and clear separation of instruments! I know it's kind of artifitial, but it sounded good.

I have not ordered another AVR for myself, but looking for a proper DSP to provide such effect. Would a miniDSP Flex support such function, or any recommendation for such? Looking for a separate DSP or a DSP/DAC combo?

should be this? https://www.sony-asia.com/electronics/support/articles/00129882

try to find the patent. than you see if you can copy it with DSP.

 

[dasdoing]

Definitely giving a recording any depth is very nice, but for me in classical it absolutely vital and mandatory. Listen to Karl Muenchinger's arrangement of Pachelbel's Canon... it's layers of fun. [320k mode recommended ]

could finally check it out. must confess I am a little confused. I mainly hear the cellos/bass in the background, and violins in the front.

 

[pablolie]

could finally check it out. must confess I am a little confused. I mainly hear the cellos/bass in the background, and violins in the front.

Well, even if that's the way you hear it, it's depth you are describing.

What I hear is that it starts with cellos and violas on the right, then the 2nd violins kinda centered and more in the back (which is an unusual placement but there are plenty of debates on that, but then again it might be the viola section, which is middle), finally the first violins on the left. That's on top of the depth layers.

 

[dasdoing]

Well, even if that's the way you hear it, it's depth you are describing.

What I hear is that it starts with cellos and violas on the right, then the 2nd violins kinda centered and more in the back (which is an unusual placement but there are plenty of debates on that, but then again it might be the viola section, which is middle), finally the first violins on the left. That's on top of the depth layers.

I mean, the cellos are not exactly center, but not really to the right either. also the violins float a lot. I suspect it's a mid/side recording with emphasis on the mid mic.
I've heard orchestra recordings that basicly created a live image of the orchestra formation in my brain. can't hear a lot of stereo seperation on this one

 

[dasdoing]

I guess it's like the other topic where people discussed the "gigantic pianos" in solo piano recordings. only that it's the opposite for orchestral stuff. engeniers tend to center the recordings....though the hall obviously has a big impact in scattering the sound

 

[dasdoing]

this recording for example, I can hear all the sections of the orchestra seperated

on many Bethoven 5 I hear a little left and right, but this has clear seperation between all the instruments

 

[pablolie]

I mean, the cellos are not exactly center, but not really to the right either. also the violins float a lot. I suspect it's a mid/side recording with emphasis on the mid mic.
I've heard orchestra recordings that basicly created a live image of the orchestra formation in my brain. can't hear a lot of stereo seperation on this one

Nothing floats. It's different elements of the orchestra, played for effect, and that's what classical music does. There is zero panning. The cellos play hard right even on my Audioengine A2, so maybe something is out of phase when you heard it.

 

[pablolie]

I guess it's like the other topic where people discussed the "gigantic pianos" in solo piano recordings. only that it's the opposite for orchestral stuff. engeniers tend to center the recordings....though the hall obviously has a big impact in scattering the sound

That is a topic I initiated and created (and has been ripped off in other audiophile forums). Clearly staging in classical music matters to me, so I may have listened to a few things. Enjoy what you like, I'll enjoy mine.

The Truth about many "Audiophile" Piano Recordings

I listen to a lot of classical and jazz in general, so when I establish if something sounds "well", piano features very high on the things I'd listen to. As does percussion and human voice - and an entire classical ensemble, too (I do avoid the cannon shot in 1812, though, I think that's the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Sokel]

One out of the ordinary recordings giving a nice multilayer illusion of depth is this one:
(didn't search YT,better find it and listen to it somewhere nicer)
((I'm sure there will be a digital version too,they proudly say it's a digital recording on the cover))

Edit: Do NOT expect Fritz Reiner's heartbreaking performance,it's the specific illusion we are talking about here

 

[goat76]

Nothing floats. It's different elements of the orchestra, played for effect, and that's what classical music does. There is zero panning. The cellos play hard right even on my Audioengine A2, so maybe something is out of phase when you heard it.

I must say I hear this more as @dasdoing describes it. The cellos are a bit further back than the violins but not distinctly to the right, just maybe a little bit off-center to the right if any. The recording got depth, but it's not easy to pinpoint the placement of the different instrument segments.


I'm curious why you hear the cellos to the right, maybe there's something off with the balance in your sound system?

 

[pablolie]

I must say I hear this more as @dasdoing describes it. The cellos are a bit further back than the violins but not distinctly to the right, just maybe a little bit off-center to the right if any. The recording got depth, but it's not easy to pinpoint the placement of the different instrument segments.


I'm curious why you hear the cellos to the right, maybe there's something off with the balance in your sound system?

Nope, perfectly set up. Cellos clearly on the right (where they belong in an orchestra). Blatantly clear around the 2:00 mark. Be aware that when violas play low notes they shift things to the middle, so listen to the sections where the violas are not re-enforcing the cello section.

In any case, it's clear we *can* hear depth and that it is easier (and even mandatory) with classical music.

 

[dasdoing]

@pablolie

Cellos clearly on the right

here is a reading from the begining where they play alone (after room-eq but that doesn't matter here). clearly not a pure stereo recording. it's dead center right there. there are probably mics over every section + a stereo pair

 

[pablolie]

@pablolie


here is a reading from the begining where they play alone (after room-eq but that doesn't matter here). clearly not a pure stereo recording. it's dead center right there. there are probably mics over every section + a stereo pair

View attachment 264625

Guys it doesn't matter to me. This post was about stage depth and you all said you heard it, so let's click it off as "mission accomplished" as far as classical goes :-D