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Sound stage depth?

j_j

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The paper is excellent, I totally get the fact that, in a hall or very large room, there must be a benefit to go multi-channel. The paper proves the advantage of 3 channels (although large venues seemed to have moved to even more channels than that, sometimes much to my chagrin, because I like to hear stuff in front of me, which is what my eyes reveal), but then again it seems the paper (caveat: haven't finished reading it yet) also states the recording itself should happen with 3 microphones. Over-simplifying some here.

I would be very curious about a 3-channel setup, especially one that allows me to very easily dial in the volume of the center channel on the fly. However, the music I own is all stereo. How would I take advantage of a center channel? Even this paper states that the center channel may reduce stage width if inappropriately calibrated. Is Atmos the logical evolution of the setup the paper suggests?

I know multichannel music exists. MP3 has an extension to be multi-channel (not sure when it was introduced, I know originally it only supported mono and stereo). Can any system add artificial depth to a stereo recording? I find myself thinking whether my huge established preference for stereo (well, 2.1 these days: stereo + sub) is driven by intellectual laziness, force of habit, or the lack of media that let me test it out. :-D

Sorry for the stream of consciousness, my brain hasn't yet been able to process all the stuff I learned. :)

Thanks for a very eye-opening thread!

That would be "at least 3 microphones", but yes, you are getting the message.

"What do I do with 2 channel "stereo"?" is a very, very good question, indeed. The answer is "not as much as one would want", and yes, we're stuck with a great lot of 2-channel recordings (which nobody is going to throw out, well, we're not throwing out mono recordings either!).

As to specific multichannel systems, I am not going to comment on any particular system. A good "rendering" system could (and can) produce the best result from any given layout without more production, mixing, etc. That does exist, but it's not common (to say the least) in the modern world yet.

MP3 was, when we wrote the original system, only mono or stereo. Then "Backward compatible multichannel" was created (which was a bad idea for reasons related to multichannel content more than the MP3 algorithm), and then "NBC" standing for "Not Backward Compatible" MPEG_2 standard, which evolved after the "BC" systems for multichannel, and that was finalized as MPEG_2 AAC, which does from 1 channel to 16 channel pairs PLUS 16 mono channels PLUS 16 LFE channels PLUS 16 steerable channels. (yes, I wrote a great deal of that bitstream).

This was then further complexified by MPEG-4 AAC, adding "low rate" (i.e. bad qualiity if you want my opinion) options, more high rate options, some various options relating to other audio tools, etc, and to my thinking was complexified to a degree that just over did it all, and made subsets the only option for most uses and manufacturing.

BUT having a way to send compressed audio channels isn't the point. In a modern system we can stick to 24/48 or 24/96 without any real storage problems, and that's how I would personally like to see such content produced.

This brings us to channel layouts, again. First, let us consider 'quad'. Bzzzt. No center speaker. Absolutely the wrong thing to do, 3 front and one back is the way to go if you only have 4. That brings us to matrixed systems (of which there are a few dozen). Bzzzt, you can't get the time cues right. You can'get 5 independent data streams from 2 of the same rate and format per stream. Mathematics works, like it or not.

So, we move to independent multichannel (PLEASE!!!!). This does not solve your or my problem with current 2 channel recordings. So let's just let that be, although some subtle processing can improve things a bit, it is "improvement" rather than "accuracy".

What is required? First a CENTER SPEAKER. That is the most important position. +- 22 to 30 degrees come next, i.e. left and right.

For side and rear it's more interesting. For side, you must have a channel on each side (symmetric L/R positions) in front of the pinna shadow (the HF loss you get from a sound from the rear of your head) to get immersion at the sides of your body (even for a frontal source in a concert hall). You must also have 2 rear channels, again symmetric, behind the pinna shadow. Once you have that, you can create not only imaging (which is often silly if it's not in front of you, but not always) but also hall sensation that is actually something like the auditory cues you need to sound like you're in a particular venue (good, bad, whatever, any venue).

In a proper 3 channel setup, you would not want to vary the center channel independently of the rest, and the speakers must be effectively identical. For synthetic things, well, maybe yes, you do want a control, but the real question is "how do I get the center channel and not muck up the time domain cues". Strictly speaking, it's impossible, but you can do a "pretty good job" most of the time, more so if a source is panpotted, less so if it includes proper time cues in L and R. Such is life.

Subwoofers and elevation can be addressed elsewhere. Btw, subwoofers, NO unless there's at least 4 properly integrated.
 

j_j

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The paper proves the advantage of 3 channels (although large venues seemed to have moved to even more channels than that, sometimes much to my chagrin, because I like to hear stuff in front of me, which is what my eyes reveal), but then again it seems the paper (caveat: haven't finished reading it yet) also states the recording itself should happen with 3 microphones. Over-simplifying some here.

Oh and there's another issue I may have missed in passing. If you are REPRODUCING in a large venue (as opposed to the 'listener in the middle' situation in the paper, or the situation of a smaller listening space, more channels with proper content is necessary if there is to be any real "imaging" for anyone who is off axis.

For front sensation in a small venue 3 is good (LCR), but for large venues both time and level variations with distance completely squash the idea of 3 channels. Cinema is very, very different. I'm tempted to say "completely different" but the production methods that are in use haven't evolved yet.
 

Thomas_A

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Don't forget floor bounce.
Of course but that is a bit complicated when it comes to the recording. Studio mic, live etc
 

HarmonicTHD

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Question. What about effects which could even be transmitted via a single speaker. Such as fading of the loudness, adding reverb or adding a frequency shift to mimick Doppler to give the impression the object is going into the distance? Could this give an impression of “depth” when of course in facts there isn’t?

Thx.
 

Thomas_A

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Question. What about effects which could even be transmitted via a single speaker. Such as fading of the loudness, adding reverb or adding a frequency shift to mimick Doppler to give the impression the object is going into the distance? Could this give an impression of “depth” when of course in facts there isn’t?

Thx.
Yes it can. At least for relative distance. You can have close mic voice vs a reverbant voice with reduced loudness and reduced sibilance. Stereo gives some issues perhaps due to the phantom image vs a center channel.
 

RobL

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Great discussion! Out of my depth so nothing much to add but I did read about this study that found that reverberation was a critical cue for auditory localization of distance. Do recordings encode this information as well and can this help stereo recordings give the impression of depth?
 

pablolie

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Great discussion! Out of my depth so nothing much to add but I did read about this study that found that reverberation was a critical cue for auditory localization of distance. Do recordings encode this information as well and can this help stereo recordings give the impression of depth?
I think the combo of stereo+brain can gain the impression of depth... it basically blends our expectations with our hearing, IMO. As I mentioned, for me, with classical, depth is essential... but I am aware it may well be to a large degree because I *know* how the orchestra is set up, so probably my brain places the different instruments in a stage - both width and depth. With other types of music, not so much. There was a highly recommended recording by the OWL Trio that is lauded for the staging and the effect of the church they recorded it in... but honestly I just like the music, and don't hear the depth as much (it's just a Trio, it's unlikely they sit one of the guys 20ft back :) ...

I also think a classical recording would sound very different if they put the percussion (loud cymbals etc) in front of the center violins... we'd jump off our seats with Tchaikovsky's grand finales... :-D
 
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j_j

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BTW, talking about immersion, just tried the Immersion mixcubed SW, seems to be very, very interesting.
Thank you, I try not to mention work in this venue, but I'm glad you like it.

The full suite can also render to any reasonable speaker layout you choose, except we don't do subwoofers unless we MUST.
 

goat76

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Indeed the original test was to reproduce the sound of a concert hall. It seems to me that distance cues from a live space are exactly what we're talking about here. The size of the venue is more important from the point of view of course, rather than listening situation.

The Figure 1 tells it all. The understanding of why came later. I had forgotten about that archive, by the way, thank you for reminding me. My copy is in a book to my left.

I read that old report and found a possible big flaw in their comparison of the 2- and 3-channel setups.

In a more fair comparison, I think they should have moved the speakers much closer to each other in the 2-channel configuration to get a more similar perceived stereo width as in the 3-channel setup. I suspect the gap of 42.8 feet (13 meters) between the speakers in the 2-ch setup may have been too wide and possibly created a diffuse-sounding phantom image, "A hole in the middle".

The opposite problem may have occurred if the starting point of the test was a properly set up 2-channel configuration, with a properly "anchored" phantom center. Then the verdict of the test could have been that adding a center channel makes the stereo field too narrow, and not that big of an improvement to the center image. :)



From the report:
"The results obtained with the 2-channel system show 2 marked differences from those obtained with 3-channel reproduction. Positions on the center line of the pick-up stage (i. e., 4, 5, 6) all appear in JANUARY 1934 the rear center of the virtual stage, and the virtual stage depth for all positions is reduced. The virtual stage width, however, is somewhat greater than that obtained with 3-channel reproduction."

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And the following part of the report is another thing that makes me think they should have moved the speakers closer to each other in the 2-channel setup:

"Bridging a third microphone across the 2-channel system had the effect of pulling the center line positions 4, 5, 6, forward, but the virtual stage depth remained substantially that afforded by 2-channel reproduction, while the virtual stage width was decreased somewhat."

The "somewhat" decreased stage width is not clear enough for me. I like to know if the width was now comparable with the stage width of the 3-channel playback, otherwise, it's yet another indication that the 2-channel setup may have been too wide for a fair comparison.
 
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j_j

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There are many things not accounted for, but the point here is distance cues, and that seems quite clear, especially since modern understanding explains why, as well, and modern recording and mixing preferences (frequency emphasis on the center panned parts of the mix) show the problem clearly. The problem with doing the EQ is that the emphasis then puts a contrary cue into the playback room reverberation.
 

Thomas_A

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There are many things not accounted for, but the point here is distance cues, and that seems quite clear, especially since modern understanding explains why, as well, and modern recording and mixing preferences (frequency emphasis on the center panned parts of the mix) show the problem clearly. The problem with doing the EQ is that the emphasis then puts a contrary cue into the playback room reverberation.
Isn't the result mainly due to mic proximity? Adding a center channel does not improve depth from center image when recorded with two mics.
 

j_j

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It's due to the interaction of the center being reproduced in 2 channels which then add at each ear, creating a frequency shaping.

It is always possible to also record something wrong. :D
 

12Many

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Lots of great replies and interesting takes. I guess I'll settle in on it being an illusion, and one that I may be less susceptible to for whatever myriad reasons. It's also possible that I just haven't heard the right speakers in the right room that would make me say "holy cow, I can hear the guitar player standing in front of the drummer!" However, my brain tends to interpret level differences as something being "prominent vs buried," not "near vs far." Particular speakers having wider dispersion characteristics that can create early reflections in the listening room could certainly add to or take away from the illusion - I can get on board with that. I'm still a bit baffled by someone stating that a particular amplifier has much greater depth to the soundstage than another (which I'm sure everyone else here has also seen) as it really shouldn't have anything to do with it. Thanks everyone for sharing some great info!
I am not sure why you would say it is an illusion. Imagine having two people in a room, one close to you and the other far away. I think you can tell which one is close and which one is far away when they are talking, particularly if they are talking at the same time. Now, if you look at those voices or signals, I believe the far person will sound less loud and their voice will take longer to get to us, and we might pick up some side echo that would not be the same as the close person. That is likely what the mixer is doing or the mic is picking up. At certain times I find the music to be very three dimensional.
 

Emlin

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It's mostly reverb, the timing of it and its relative loudness. That's how our hearing normally works to locate things, why would it be different when listening to recorded music?
 

j_j

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It's mostly reverb, the timing of it and its relative loudness. That's how our hearing normally works to locate things, why would it be different when listening to recorded music?

In a recording being played back, there are two reverbs, as well as cross-channel interference. So it's not as simple as you say.
 

kongwee

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In recording, the producer will get the product what they can hear and wanna hear to the public. Won't care it is right or wrong.
 

pablolie

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It's mostly reverb, the timing of it and its relative loudness. That's how our hearing normally works to locate things, why would it be different when listening to recorded music?
Yes... and no. Never forget that while good microphones are amazing at what they do, they do have limitations in design, and typically are purpose-build for certain applications. And just like the perfect speaker is a point source that we will never (?) implement, the perfect microphone that records anything, anywhere, omnidirectionally, with perfect balance... probably also as a point source... will never exist.

And our desire for technical perfection in recording and reproduction has another limitation in the nature of our hearing limitations. Just today over lunch, funny coincidence, I was speaking with two friends that got to talk about the tragedy of DSD not being a univeral medium - given the combination of over 120dB as well as backward compatibility... and I just asked... "Shame we don't have 120dB speakers or ears, no?" :)
 
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pablolie

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In recording, the producer will get the product what they can hear and wanna hear to the public. Won't care it is right or wrong.
Completely true. All too often, the goal is to make the music sound impressive on crappy systems. Like listening through a smartphone speaker. What do you do? The Motown method -boost the bass and the highs, good ole bathtub-shaped EQ... "it'll sound better on AM radio!" (or a smartphone speaker) Then crank up the loudness and the results are absolutely disastrous on a good system (and I don't mean high end).

MOST music is abominably recorded, IMO. And even when super well-recorded: I laughed when it was so in to claim Daft Punk was a recording reference when it was all electronic (leaving zero reference as to what it was supposed to sound like) and it was just mixed from individual instruments' recordings in a zillion different studios. Sorry, it may sound very clean, but there is zero reference to anything truthful. Very fun, very resolved, very punchy... but it was recorded to sound that way, and I'd never use it as a reference when evaluating gear, because it'll sound well enough anywhere.

I am often impressed when I like the music a lot even though I think the recording is ho-hum to terrible (and that is not an unusual occurrence).
 
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