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Sound science

DonH56

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Well crud, I just had to deal with some wave equations and was reading about some of the materials research behind FINFET's for a paper, guess I'll have to turn in my engineer's card.

So we read math doesn't matter, engineers don't do science, and audiophiles don't care about either.

Wow.

I suspect many (but not all) of the engineers who said they've forgotten all math were joking. That said, whilst in design I used calculus fairly often, it was not daily, and a lot of design uses models that are essentially algebraic. There is such a huge range of engineering, of science in general, that I find such generalization useless and often insulting. The debate between science purists and engineers is never-ending. The definitions are spelled out in gov't docs but the line between basic research (pure science) and applied research has always been a bit blurry to me. I think engineers' ability to reduce pure science to practice should not be overlooked nor understated but of course I am biased. I thought I wanted to do pure research, and have done a bit, but discovered I like to build it and see it wiggle. Heck, I was ready to go to med school, but have noticed since that a lot of doctors could sorely use some engineering troubleshooting skills.
 

AJ Soundfield

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Because there is no science in audiophile tomfoolery with electronics, etc., they have come to believe there is no science basis to engineering also.
Not hard to find threads on believer forums stating (sound) engineering isn't science. They honestly believe this, which of course, isn't surprising.
 

amirm

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I suspect many (but not all) of the engineers who said they've forgotten all math were joking.
Hi Don. I have hired and managed dozens of hardware engineers. I don't recall them ever using or knowing advanced math. Here is a thread on that on the main forum for engineering these days: http://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/advanced-math-in-electronics-engineering/

You can see the comments there on how sparse usage of advanced math is in engineering. Yes some people do use it and it is part of their job but that is a fraction of total engineering community.

In the case of audio, I don't think the person designing an amplifier is using any advanced math, nor advancing science of audio.
 

AJ Soundfield

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The ignorance of audiophiles is staggering...but very amusing too.:)
http://ugs.usf.edu/catalog/?catyr=1516&category=majors&display=detail&maj=EEL&deg=BSEE
Total Major Hours: 107 Hours
Major Core Courses - 95 Hours

Math and Science (27 credit hours)

Basic Engineering (13 credit hours)

  • EGN 3000 Foundations of Engineering
  • EGN 3000L Foundations of Engineering Laboratory
  • EGN 3443 Probability and Statistics for Engineers
  • EGN 3615 Engineering Economics with Social and Global Implications (required FKL Social and Behavioral Elective)
  • EGN 3373 Introduction to Electrical Systems I
  • EGN 3420 Engineering Analysis
Specialization (52 credit hours)

Audiophile belief: "Engineering isn't science"....:rolleyes:
 

Cosmik

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Right, audio science can't answer a vague psychology question about you, posed by you. That's correct.
Regarding specific questions about audio systems, yes. But you can't ask one, despite all the hand waving.

So whose psychology is the audio designer designing their product to appeal to? You make it sound as though the aim is to make something that just plays to itself in an empty room, with really good measurements.

If I were to ask a television designer why I should buy their television on a scientific/mathematical/engineering basis, they would tell me. It would be to do with size, linearity, contrast etc. Audio is different - possibly because of good, scientific reasons. In other words science or maths might be able to tell us why science or maths can't answer the question (too many variables or whatever) - which would have been a good answer.
 

DonH56

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Hi Don. I have hired and managed dozens of hardware engineers. I don't recall them ever using or knowing advanced math. Here is a thread on that on the main forum for engineering these days: http://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/advanced-math-in-electronics-engineering/

You can see the comments there on how sparse usage of advanced math is in engineering. Yes some people do use it and it is part of their job but that is a fraction of total engineering community.

In the case of audio, I don't think the person designing an amplifier is using any advanced math, nor advancing science of audio.

I would bet "ever using or knowing" is too strong; they would have had to have some in college to get the degree. How much it is used after college is very much a function of the area of engineering they pursue. I would not disagree that it is a fraction of engineers in general (but don't really know). I have hired quite a few myself, but they all knew advanced math, and physics, and other needful things to be a designer. OTOH I have interviewed a lot of engineers who have forgotten what little they had and can't handle even basic analog questions. IMO schools are churning out programmers with an engineering course or two so they can use the engineer label on the degree.

As for audio amplifiers, maybe yes maybe no, and depends upon what you call advanced math and the amplifier design in question. Wave theory, probably not, but some may well delve into calculus for some of the circuit design. I did, but my career took a different path than audio.

I rarely speak (write) in absolutes because it is all too easy to find an exception. When I was working on the pre-med courses and working with various scientists a lot of them did not use high-level math. Statistics, sometimes, but often in a cookbook fashion. Does that mean a biologist or chemical researcher is not s scientist? The pathologist I worked for one summer wasn't a math whiz, nor the nationally-regarded geneticist, where do you draw the line? I have worked with incredibly talented scientists who had no hope nor desire to reduce anything to practice, and some materials physicists who were flat-out dangerous in the lab when they tried to characterize their new-found device. I was glad to be able to provide some level of engineering talent whilst still being able to follow the math. OK, mostly... It was great when we are able to work out theories together, test them, and modify them to fit what we measured.

I find the whole argument somewhat silly, sometimes insulting, and rather disingenuous. Might as well jump on a thread arguing that most people are not qualified to evaluate audio gear because they don't have the "ears" for it on one side or don't understand the science (psychoacoustics) on the other.

Side tale: Once I worked with a very sharp scientist and at one point was struggling to solve a rather nasty integral-differential equation describing a particular power circuit design. I could set it up but solving the resulting mess was just not happening. I went to him and he handed me the solution in about five minutes. I was in awe. A few days later I had to modify the system, spent a morning wading through equations, and at the end was roughly 0.001 % convinced I had the right answer. I went back to him, and again a few minutes later he had solved it, with a fairly complicated result. Stunned, I asked him how he did that, and he laughed and said "Maple!" -- http://www.maplesoft.com/ So even scientists need help sometimes... :)

Science and engineering are both about much more than math, though math is important to both (at least at some level). And I have known too many brilliant folk who do not really fit squarely into "scientist" or "engineer" -- many have a blend of everything, including (gasp!) artist (that is my horn in my avatar, and I do use it now and then, e.g. www.pikespeakphil.org).

"Specialization is for insects." - Heinlein
 
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AJ Soundfield

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So whose psychology is the audio designer designing their product to appeal to?
I give up, who?
What does that have to do with engineering not being science? Nothing of course, just more hand waving.

Audio is different - possibly because of good, scientific reasons.
Yes http://www.aes-media.org/sections/pnw/ppt/jj/audiovsvideo.ppt

In other words science or maths might be able to tell us why science or maths can't answer the question (too many variables or whatever) - which would have been a good answer.
What question? What "you like"? You have asked zero specific audio science question, most likely unable to understand the concept.
Science can answer audio questions. For psychology issues, please consult one, not audio science.
 

amirm

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I give up, who?
What does that have to do with engineering not being science? Nothing of course, just more hand waving.

Yes http://www.aes-media.org/sections/pnw/ppt/jj/audiovsvideo.ppt

What question? What "you like"? You have asked zero specific audio science question, most likely unable to understand the concept.
Science can answer audio questions. For psychology issues, please consult one, not audio science.
Seems like you are smelling fresh pant leg AJ :). Let it go please.
 
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h.g.

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This has wandered a bit since I last posted but I think it is fair to say it is indirectly confirming a low but certainly not zero interest in the science of sound. Useful to know.

It also indicates that the forum is establishing itself as a normal audiophile one with lots of one way preaching and little in the way of two way dialogue seeking to pull together relevant technical information. Again, useful to know but it would be good to find a home audio forum that has cracked how to grow constructive technical dialogue.
 

Cosmik

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Things I would count as engineering:
  • how feedback in amplifiers reduces distortion etc.
  • the characteristics of various filters
  • how interference and noise couple into our systems
  • how a Class A, AB, C, D, G, H amplifier works
  • how big do your caps need to be?
  • why are volume controls logarithmic?
  • what's a dB?
  • what is the definition of THD and how do we measure it?
  • how does an ADC and a DAC work?
  • how can a turntable motor be accurately regulated?
  • how does a CD player work?
  • how thick do my speaker cables need to be?
  • What are Thiele/Small parameters?
These have all go a bit of maths in them, and they are the application of well-established science. They are of interest to practitioners of audio engineering and audiophiles who want a bit of background to their hobby.

What I would count as science (because it is still not established) would be:
  • is stereo the best way of recording and replaying music in a domestic setting? If not, are there better ways?
  • could tracking technology (e.g. Microsoft game sensor thingy) help to improve our audio systems?
  • how might a true digital speaker work?
  • Beolab 90: what does it do, and how does it work?
  • are there ways to improve speaker/amplifier performance using adaptive systems?
  • how can old recordings be restored?
  • how might active acoustics help our audio systems?
and so on. General principles would do. It would not be necessary to get down to equation level to explore these scientific topics - in fact too much detail would obscure the ideas. It's only when we start building the ASR Beolab 90-alike project that we will need to do that! :)
 

tomelex

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This has wandered a bit since I last posted but I think it is fair to say it is indirectly confirming a low but certainly not zero interest in the science of sound. Useful to know.

It also indicates that the forum is establishing itself as a normal audiophile one with lots of one way preaching and little in the way of two way dialogue seeking to pull together relevant technical information. Again, useful to know but it would be good to find a home audio forum that has cracked how to grow constructive technical dialogue.

I would like to think that folks here share their level of expertise, we are not all experts in everything, but some of us are in the peanut gallery, right?
 
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h.g.

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I would like to think that folks here share their level of expertise, we are not all experts in everything, but some of us are in the peanut gallery, right?
A few but it is almost certainly more a consequence of the form of the forum rather than a cause. There is little sharing of expertise on this forum not because the expertise is not around but because normal two way dialogue is not taking place. Ethan's ringing thread is a lovely example of this where several people have answered his questions but not in a form he understands and because he refuses to enter a dialogue with them to resolve what he misunderstands the thread goes on, and on, and on,...

Many of the people here want sound bites of information about home audio to store in random bins in their brains. They not only want it, they demand it should be given as quite a few including Amir have made clear to me. Perhaps some people that are a bit insecure might respond to such demands but I am pretty sure that few that are comfortable with their knowledge will. They will go away.

Sharing is a two way process and the person giving will want something back. If it is not about marketing to support their income and/or status what they tend to want is that their giving is doing good. This rarely means providing information to be learnt by rote but providing information that helps link the pieces together and grow an understanding of a shared interest. This is provided by a normal dialogue with questions like "why", "how does that fit with this",... and not demands for an answer that bypasses understanding.

It is Amir's corner of the internet and he clearly does not want to work towards a forum containing technical dialogue of this form. Fair enough. As best I can guess he wants the usual mix of subjective and objective audiophiles to chat happily around some home audio articles he finds interesting. Why he expects this to happen without the one-way shouting seen on every other audiophile forum and currently seen here I have no idea. By deleting my two other threads he might at least be thinking about taking some action to guide the evolution of the forum (presumably this one also is also likely to wink out at some point in the future). However, by not being open and explicit about things particularly what is in and what is out, deleting civil constructive posts rather than debating against them, etc... it is hard to be optimistic despite the major effort he is clearly putting in. But you never know.
 

amirm

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It is Amir's corner of the internet and he clearly does not want to work towards a forum containing technical dialogue of this form. Fair enough. As best I can guess he wants the usual mix of subjective and objective audiophiles to chat happily around some home audio articles he finds interesting. Why he expects this to happen without the one-way shouting seen on every other audiophile forum and currently seen here I have no idea. By deleting my two other threads he might at least be thinking about taking some action to guide the evolution of the forum (presumably this one also is also likely to wink out at some point in the future). However, by not being open and explicit about things particularly what is in and what is out, deleting civil constructive posts rather than debating against them, etc... it is hard to be optimistic despite the major effort he is clearly putting in. But you never know.
Yeh, the whole affair has been a failed experiment. For the next venture, I am going to do what this guy does:


He got 5 million views on that video alone! And not a single mention of high-school physics either! He is my hero.
 

TBone

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awesome video ... thanks for sharing.
 
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