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Sony SS-CS5 bookshelf speaker (review by Erin)

Dennis Murphy

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The impact of the 1 kHz is small relative to overall boost in that region. You can see it in my measurents:

index.php


You can see just a 1 dB or so peaking which is not going to very audible. Erin's measurements of the same are too smoothed to show it.

EQ I developed fixes the broader deviation:
index.php
I'm not following--the peaking looks more like 4-5 dB. and above the upper treble deviations using the listening window plot as a reference.
 

amirm

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I'm not following--the peaking looks more like 4-5 dB. and above the upper treble deviations using the listening window plot as a reference.
There is a broad boost which could be what you are talking about as far as baffle step. But there is a tiny narrow peak which is the cabinet resonance:

1639612936094.png


Once baffle is compensated for (or whatever is causing that boost between 1 and 2 kHz, then the cabinet resonances will indeed be in the order of 4 to 5 dB but will be narrow.
 

sarumbear

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Once baffle is compensated for (or whatever is causing that boost between 1 and 2 kHz, then the cabinet resonances will indeed be in the order of 4 to 5 dB but will be narrow.
Couldn't that boost be caused by a louder mid-range? By simply looking at the mid drive unit, I wouldn't expect it to go much lower than 1kHz. We can see from the spinorama that the cut off to the tweeter is around 2kHz. A sensitivity miss-match on the mid driver plus the resonance peak and an imperfect twitter crossover may well get that broad boost at 1-2kHz -- me thinks.
 
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hardisj

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I certainly wouldn't mind taking a whack at the Neumi. I'm sure a smart guy like you could improve its crossover, but I think your time is a lot more valuable running the Klippel machine and writing great reviews. My only hesitation is the mess created by the front port. I'm not sure there's a lot I can do about that other than bring the overall level down a little.

Well, shoot me a PM and let's talk and see if there's something we can do. FWIW, I was thinking of just stuffing the ports and calling it a day. :)
 
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Mudjock

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I certainly wouldn't mind taking a whack at the Neumi. I'm sure a smart guy like you could improve its crossover, but I think your time is a lot more valuable running the Klippel machine and writing great reviews. My only hesitation is the mess created by the front port. I'm not sure there's a lot I can do about that other than bring the overall level down a little.
I've been working a little on a similar issue, as I am wrapping up the design for a relatively shallow speaker intended to be placed on a ledge near a back wall. It has a front port with some resonance issues, so I have been working on a relatively DIY-friendly solution using hand-drilled perforations. Rather than repost here, I'll link to my thread on the Midwest Audio Club forum. I'm not sure what might be accessible to modify with respect to the Neumi port, but this thread at least walks through a process and has seemed to have tangible results.

Volare
 

Dennis Murphy

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I've been working a little on a similar issue, as I am wrapping up the design for a relatively shallow speaker intended to be placed on a ledge near a back wall. It has a front port with some resonance issues, so I have been working on a relatively DIY-friendly solution using hand-drilled perforations. Rather than repost here, I'll link to my thread on the Midwest Audio Club forum. I'm not sure what might be accessible to modify with respect to the Neumi port, but this thread at least walks through a process and has seemed to have tangible results.

Volare
I was just going to suggest inserting a bunch of soda straws into the port. That's worked for me in the past, although it does reduce the output a bit. But there's not a lot of bass to lose, and it would be better than stuffing it completely.
 
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Dennis Murphy

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Couldn't that boost be caused by a louder mid-range? By simply looking at the mid drive unit, I wouldn't expect it to go much lower than 1kHz. We can see from the spinorama that the cut off to the tweeter is around 2kHz. A sensitivity miss-match on the mid driver plus the resonance peak and an imperfect twitter crossover may well get that broad boost at 1-2kHz -- me thinks.
It's the woofer response. Here's the filtered response for the main tweeter. There's nothing going on at 1 kHz

1639625705018.png
 

More Dynamics Please

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I was just going to suggest inserting a bunch of soda straws into the port. That's worked for me in the past, although it does reduce the output a bit. But there's not a lot of bass to lose, and it would be better than stuffing it completely.

The soda straw in the port trick has been around for ages. First time I saw it mentioned was with the Radio Shack Optimus Pro LX5 I owned about a quarter century ago. But it probably goes back further than that. Over the years I've seen conflicting explanations for why the straws are so effective and would appreciate it if you could set the record straight.
 

Dennis Murphy

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The soda straw in the port trick has been around for ages. First time I saw it mentioned was with the Radio Shack Optimus Pro LX5 I owned about a quarter century ago. But it probably goes back further than that. Over the years I've seen conflicting explanations for why the straws are so effective and would appreciate it if you could set the record straight.
I'm no expert on port dynamics, but I guess the theory rests on the proposition that a bajillion little ports each with a very high ratio of length to diameter will be less prone to a pronounced resonance than a single port with a lower ratio of length to diameter. There's probably more to it. I first encountered this approach on my 1980's Proac Tablettes, which for whatever reason did have an extremely smooth midbass response.
 

sarumbear

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It's the woofer response. Here's the filtered response for the main tweeter. There's nothing going on at 1 kHz

View attachment 172725
I was commenting on the broad lift in the 1-2kHz range, which is where the mid driver operates. If you have individual plots of all driver may I ask you post all three (or four including the port) FR on the same chart?
 

More Dynamics Please

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I'm no expert on port dynamics, but I guess the theory rests on the proposition that a bajillion little ports each with a very high ratio of length to diameter will be less prone to a pronounced resonance than a single port with a lower ratio of length to diameter. There's probably more to it. I first encountered this approach on my 1980's Proac Tablettes, which for whatever reason did have an extremely smooth midbass response.

Makes sense. Another explanation that also seemed to make sense to me and fits with your description is that the internal surface area of all the straws is considerably greater than the internal surface area of the port which would produce more surface friction from the air passing through and create more back pressure.
 

Dennis Murphy

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Makes sense. Another explanation that also seemed to make sense to me and fits with your description is that the internal surface area of all the straws is considerably greater than the internal surface area of the port which would produce more surface friction from the air passing through and create more back pressure.
That's the other element I was trying to remember--more resistance. But I don't really understand the details on exactly how that works to reduce resonance. Looks like I'll actually have to try sticking some straws up the Neumi.
 

Dennis Murphy

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I was commenting on the broad lift in the 1-2kHz range, which is where the mid driver operates. If you have individual plots of all driver may I ask you post all three (or four including the port) FR on the same chart?
I would be happy to post the individual driver measurements, but first I have to understand your terminology. There is no midrange on the Sony. There's a mid-woofer, a main tweeter, and a super tweeter. What I posted was the response of the main tweeter with the stock filter in place. The woofer response will show all of the peaking in the 1-2 kHz region.
 

sarumbear

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I would be happy to post the individual driver measurements, but first I have to understand your terminology. There is no midrange on the Sony. There's a mid-woofer, a main tweeter, and a super tweeter. What I posted was the response of the main tweeter with the stock filter in place. The woofer response will show all of the peaking in the 1-2 kHz region.
I use the terms tweeter, mid range and woofer for the drivers that emit audio in the top, mid and low range of the the spectrum, whatever their crossover frequencies are.

Thank you.
 

Dennis Murphy

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I use the terms tweeter, mid range and woofer for the drivers that emit audio in the top, mid and low range of the the spectrum, whatever their crossover frequencies are.

Thank you.
As I said, there is no midrange on the Sony. What I posted was what you are referring to as the midrange. It's actually just your standard 1" dome that operates from about 3 kHz on up to above 10 kHz, where the super tweeter takes over. I'll post all of the curves after I mail some Xmas presents.
 

sarumbear

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As I said, there is no midrange on the Sony. What I posted was what you are referring to as the midrange. It's actually just your standard 1" dome that operates from about 3 kHz on up to above 10 kHz, where the super tweeter takes over. I'll post all of the curves after I mail some Xmas presents.
We are miscommunicating. I am using the word mid as the middle of the high and low ranges. I am not defining where that range start and end.

However, if the chart you posted (below) is about the high range driver than the design is a two way with an extra super tweeter to accentuate the extra high frequencies. In effect it is a 2.5 way design but in reverse of what we normally expect of such a design. (Two high frequency drivers instead of two low frequency drivers.)

Assuming that is the case may I then ask you post the low frequency driver's response superimposed on the same chart, please?
 

Dennis Murphy

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We are miscommunicating. I am using the word mid as the middle of the high and low ranges. I am not defining where that range start and end.

However, if the chart you posted (below) is about the high range driver than the design is a two way with an extra super tweeter to accentuate the extra high frequencies. In effect it is a 2.5 way design but in reverse of what we normally expect of such a design. (Two high frequency drivers instead of two low frequency drivers.)

Assuming that is the case may I then ask you post the low frequency driver's response superimposed on the same chart, please?
Just to confirm it's a 2-way with a little "super" tweeter stuck on top. There is no low pass filter on the main tweeter--it just rolls off on its own. I'm still not exactly sure what you're looking for--it's obvious the response deviations in the 800 - 1500 Hz area are embodied in the woofer measurement, but here's a plot that shows the overall frequency response and the filtered response of each driver. The cabinet resonance may be contributing a little to the bump, along with inadequate baffle step compensation and probably also a resonance from the junction of the woofer cone and surround.

1639693913371.png
 

sarumbear

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Just to confirm it's a 2-way with a little "super" tweeter stuck on top. There is no low pass filter on the main tweeter--it just rolls off on its own. I'm still not exactly sure what you're looking for--it's obvious the response deviations in the 800 - 1500 Hz area are embodied in the woofer measurement, but here's a plot that shows the overall frequency response and the filtered response of each driver. The cabinet resonance may be contributing a little to the bump, along with inadequate baffle step compensation and probably also a resonance from the junction of the woofer cone and surround.

View attachment 172945
First of all thank you. I think I understood the topology.

As far as I can see there two issues. One is the peaking of the low frequency driver at around 1200Hz. I do not think this is caused by the 2Pi to 4Pi conversion (the baffle step). Correcting it should be possible by integrating low Q filter to the LP filter of the crossover.

The second issue is not solvable. I think the tweeter is about 2dB too efficient. I think the HP filter is not optimised either, causing the dip at around 3kHz.

Extra complexity to the crossover will add cost but reducing complexity, hence saving may well be possible by running a simulation. Filter simulation is pretty cheap these days.

Finally, has anyone tried to audition the speaker without the super-tweeter active? As far as I can see the red curve is pretty OK for a cheap speaker. It is flat to 15kHz! Swapping the cost of that driver with more complex crossover may even save the manufacturer money while offering a better speaker.
 

Dennis Murphy

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Just to confirm it's a 2-way with a little "super" tweeter stuck on top. There is no low pass filter on the main tweeter--it just rolls off on its own. I'm still not exactly sure what you're looking for--it's obvious the response deviations in the 800 - 1500 Hz area are embodied in the woofer measurement, but here's a plot that shows the overall frequency response and the filtered response of each driver. The cabinet resonance may be contributing a little to the bump, along with inadequate baffle step compensation and probably also a resonance from the junction of the woofer cone and surround.

View attachment 172945
And just to close the circle on this, here's a plot of the raw woofer response (no filter) in the stock cabinet, and then with 3" wings added to each side.

1639696582354.png



1639696639009.png


And If anyone is interested (and I'm not saying anyone should be), here's what you get when you combine my crossover mod with the wings:
1639696893752.png
 
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