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Sony SS-CS5 3-way Speaker Review

KaiserSoze

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For those interested in the contribution of the super tweeter, it's pretty minimal. When I was preparing a crossover modification (but after I had decided to utilize the frame) I took some measurements. The frame impacts the frequencies between 600 and 6000 Hz, but not much above or below that. You can see that the super tweeter doesn't do much below 10 kHz.

Presumably this is the on-axis response curves. The curves measured at 60 degrees off-axis would likely be different. Exactly how they would be different would be a matter of speculation, but within the realm of possibility, the tiny tweeter uses diffraction to achieve better dispersion, such that off-axis its output would be comparable to the output of the larger tweeter. This is pure speculation, but if it happens to be correct, then the little tweeter is actually being used to extend the off-axis response of the bigger tweeter, i.e., to more or less make the bigger tweeter less directional at higher frequency where it becomes more directional. This is something that warrants further investigation. If this happens to be the true explanation for how this little tweeter is being used, then all of the criticism of it that we find here is misinformed.
 

BenB

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This was more interesting to me than most all of the debate over whether the speakers are junk or pretty decent and an exceptional value....

Thanks for your interest in the mods.


But back to your mods. I'd be very interested in seeing the crossover schematic both before and after your mod, and including that series crossover for the two tweeters. In a subsequent post of yours you showed the individual on-axis responses and concluded that the the super-tweeter contributes very little below 10 kHz. But perhaps things are different in the off-axis response? I.e., it might be that the tiny tweeter has substantially better dispersion, such that in the listening window response or whatever, its contribution is much stronger than what your graph implies, possibly even stronger than the bigger tweeter depending on the off-axis angle.

I don't intend to post the schematics, out of respect for the engineer(s) who developed the crossover, and out of fear of any liability I may face if a competitor reverse engineers the design, etc, etc. If you are interested in the schematic, you can buy a pair and open them up like I did. Knowing that the tweeters use a series crossover is a big hint to figuring out what's going on in there.

Your anti-diffraction mod is interesting. You provided response plots to show the before/after effect. You did this for both the crossover mod and the anti-diffraction mod, and to give you the benefit of the doubt, you would have done these measurements with just one or the other of the two mods, such that you avoided confusing the effects of the two mods.

You don't have to give me the benefit of the doubt. Post 9 shows the impact of the frame by itself.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/3068362-improving-sony-ss-cs5.html#post58076502

Diffraction occurs over a broad range of frequencies starting when the wavelength is small relative to the enclosure or the baffle. However the 1st diffraction peak occurs at a fairly well-defined wavelength where the wave propagated at the corner is in phase with the direct wave. The wave propagated at the corner is a wave associated with a "soft reflection", where a 180-degreee shift in phase occurs. Thus, the longest wavelength at which constructive interference can occur (i.e., the first peak in the diffraction ripple) is the wavelength at which the distance from the center of the driver to the edge of the cabinet or baffle is equal to one-half wavelength. In other words, the 1st peak in the diffraction ripple, for a driver centered horizontally on the baffle, occurs at wavelength matching the width of the baffle. In this case, 7", which corresponds to frequency of roughly 2 kHz. Some reinforcement will occur below this frequency and some above, however there just isn't any way that the sharp response peak at about 1.1 kHz can be attributed to diffraction. The broad elevated response that you described, from 900 to 2.2 kHz, is almost certainly a feature of the driver itself. Diffraction may contribute in the upper half of that plateau, and at 2 kHz especially, but this is the upper end of the plateau.

There's a few things going on here. First, my measurements aren't entirely consistent with Amir's. I didn't see a 4 dB jump between 800 and 1000 Hz. The increase I measured was more on the order of 2 dB. I used gating only in my measurements, no averaging. The difference there is either between our measuring tools, or between our samples, or some contribution from both. I certainly don't have a comparable measurement system. Lifewire measured something like a 3 dB jump there, with unknown amounts of averaging. Dennis measured about 2 dB AFTER the frame was in place, which may agree with Amir's 4 dB jump with no frame. It's not really important, but when I refer to the trends, I tend to refer to (or be influenced by) my own measurements.

Diffraction doesn't explain the significant discrepancy Amir measured between 800 Hz and 1000 Hz, so there is something going on with the output of the driver he measured. On the other hand, I simulated the effect of diffraction of a generic 3 way with something close to these crossover points and driver sizes and positions. In simulation, the effect of diffraction becomes positive at around 600 Hz, and doesn't go negative again until about 2700 Hz. With that in mind, diffraction DOES contribute to the plateau from 900 Hz to 2.2 kHz.


I recall reading a few years back the writeup that Linkwitz did on baffle diffraction, which is probably still on the site (it is still active). He had something to say about the effectiveness of rounded edges on cabinets. I read through it too quickly and this was probably more than five years ago, but on the off chance that I recall what he wrote, the rounding starts to become effective where 1/4 of the wavelength is shorter than the radius of the round-over. Since you used a pipe with 4" diameter (approximately), this implies that the longest wavelength at which it would be even modestly effective should be 8", or about 1.7 kHz. Of course this effect is a gradual thing, but the point is that rounding the corners doesn't have much effect until reaching higher frequency where the 2nd peak, 3rd peak, etc., of the ripple are found, but not the 1st peak, which is always the strongest and the only one that can't be neutralized by placing the affected driver 1/3 of the distance from one edge to the other edge. Thus, even if the sharp peak at about 1.1 kHz or the broad elevation from 900 to 2.2 kHz were genuinely diffraction effects, the mod you did would almost certainly not have any significant effect at these frequencies.

The impact of the frame on-axis is two-fold. It spreads the loss of energy at the edge over time, but in this case it also extends the edge. It's acting like a wider baffle. This has the measured effect of increasing the output from 400 Hz (which was the gating frequency) to 800 Hz by a couple of dB relative to the 7 inch baffle alone. My simulations show the theoretical frame elevating all frequencies from 100 Hz to 1000 Hz, which is pretty similar. The frame also has the measured effect of decreasing output from 900 Hz to around 2.5 kHz. My simulations show a decrease in output from 1000 Hz to about 2.6 kHz, which again is very similar. If you look at Amir's measured on-axis frequency response, and consider raising the output from 100 Hz to 800 Hz, while decreasing the output from 900 Hz to 2.5 kHz, that's a big win.

But additionally, the frame smooths out the response, and creates greater similarity across azimuth. Without the frame, there's a measured difference between on-axis and 60 degrees off-axis of 5 dB at 2 kHz. My simulation predicts a spread of 4.6 dB. With the frame, the measured discrepancy is 2 dB, and the simulated discrepancy is also 2 dB. In both the measured and simulated plots, you can see the on-axis response and the 60 degree off-axis response both converge on the 30 degree off-axis response when the frame is added. If you look at Amir's Horizontal Directivity plot, you'll see that from 800 Hz to 10 kHz, the 30 degree response is better than the on-axis response.

I am including 2 simulation plots that show 0, 30, and 60 degree frequency response with and without the frame. I didn't do anything to fix the baffle step inherent in the simulations, which I think is informative for the comparison. Also, no irregularities of the drivers used were included. I believe my simulations are over-estimating the dispersion of the drivers some (which exaggerates the interference, particularly at higher frequencies), but I haven't taken the time to fix that for this discussion. I only want to show that the theoretical effects and the measured effects have great similarity at the frequencies you questioned.

Sony_NoFrame_DiffractionSim_plots.pngSony_withFrame_DiffractionSim_plots.png
 
Last edited:

KaiserSoze

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Diffraction doesn't explain the significant discrepancy Amir measured between 800 Hz and 1000 Hz, so there is something going on with the output of the driver he measured. On the other hand, I simulated the effect of diffraction of a generic 3 way with something close to these crossover points and driver sizes and positions. In simulation, the effect of diffraction becomes positive at around 600 Hz, and doesn't go negative again until about 2700 Hz. With that in mind, diffraction DOES contribute to the plateau from 900 Hz to 2.2 kHz.

I would not be so inclined to put so much trust in a simulation, however I have no experience with the tool you use, and your experience with it may give you greater reason to trust it. The effect commonly referred to as the "baffle step", which is the transition from radiating into spherical space into hemispherical space, is closely associated with the diffraction effect since you can't realistically have one effect without the other. If there is a baffle, it will generally have an edge, where diffraction will generally occur. Nevertheless, diffraction leads to a ripple in the response, whereas the transition from spherical to hemispherical radiation space is a gradual effect. In the combined effect, there will be a gradual rise in response starting at very low frequency but very gradually. In the combined effect, the first peak in the diffraction ripple combines with the overall step rise, the net effect being a rise in response that becomes significant at frequency well below the frequency of the first peak in the diffraction ripple. I do not think it is proper to attribute the general rise observed at lower frequency, lower than half the frequency of the first peak in the diffraction ripple, to diffraction per se. If you were to apply a modification that eliminated just the diffraction ripple and not the baffle step, the general rise that is observed at frequency well below the first peak in the diffraction ripple will not be appreciably affected. I.e., if you were to substantially eliminate the diffraction ripple by replacing the rectangular enclosure with a cylinder with diameter about the same as the width of the rectangular enclosure, the overall step rise that is attributable to the transition from spherical radiation space to hemispherical radiation space will probably become more gradual but will remain. As such, there just does not seem to be any way that eliminating diffraction per se will have any appreciable effect on a rise that is significant at wavelength roughly three times longer than the wavelength where the first peak in the diffraction ripple occurs. (Please note that I am not suggesting that the rise observed with this particular speaker, starting at 600 Hz or wherever, is due expressly to the baffle step.)

Of course you have also said that the effect of the pipes is more than elimination of diffraction per se. But this also is puzzling, for a couple of reasons. If the rise that starts at 600 Hz (or wherever it starts exactly) is eliminated via some effect (of the mod) other than elimination of diffraction per se, how would it then make sense to refer to the broad rise in the response as an effect of diffraction per se? Also, how would the modest increase in the width of the baffle affect the baffle step to anywhere near the extent needed to produce an appreciable attenuation of that rise? Making the baffle slightly wider would cause the baffle step to shift lower in frequency, so if this had any effect on the rise that starts at about 600 Hz, the effect would be to cause a further, marginal increase in this rise, not to suppress it. And for that matter, this rise in response at about 600 Hz doesn't look even remotely like a rise that would be attributable to the baffle step per se, and on this obvious basis it would not seem to be reasonable to think that it would be significantly affected by any alteration of the baffle step effect. Or by any alteration of the diffraction effect.


The impact of the frame on-axis is two-fold. It spreads the loss of energy at the edge over time, but in this case it also extends the edge. It's acting like a wider baffle. This has the measured effect of increasing the output from 400 Hz (which was the gating frequency) to 800 Hz by a couple of dB relative to the 7 inch baffle alone. My simulations show the theoretical frame elevating all frequencies from 100 Hz to 1000 Hz, which is pretty similar. The frame also has the measured effect of decreasing output from 900 Hz to around 2.5 kHz. My simulations show a decrease in output from 1000 Hz to about 2.6 kHz, which again is very similar. If you look at Amir's measured on-axis frequency response, and consider raising the output from 100 Hz to 800 Hz, while decreasing the output from 900 Hz to 2.5 kHz, that's a big win.

But additionally, the frame smooths out the response, and creates greater similarity across azimuth. Without the frame, there's a measured difference between on-axis and 60 degrees off-axis of 5 dB at 2 kHz. My simulation predicts a spread of 4.6 dB. With the frame, the measured discrepancy is 2 dB, and the simulated discrepancy is also 2 dB. In both the measured and simulated plots, you can see the on-axis response and the 60 degree off-axis response both converge on the 30 degree off-axis response when the frame is added. If you look at Amir's Horizontal Directivity plot, you'll see that from 800 Hz to 10 kHz, the 30 degree response is better than the on-axis response.

I am including 2 simulation plots that show 0, 30, and 60 degree frequency response with and without the frame. I didn't do anything to fix the baffle step inherent in the simulations, which I think is informative for the comparison. Also, no irregularities of the drivers used were included. I believe my simulations are over-estimating the dispersion of the drivers some (which exaggerates the interference, particularly at higher frequencies), but I haven't taken the time to fix that for this discussion. I only want to show that the theoretical effects and the measured effects have great similarity at the frequencies you questioned.

View attachment 68300View attachment 68299
 

CoastingOR

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I thought differently about these speakers. I bought them as rear surround speakers for my AVR. I have a still quite nice pair of Speakerlab Model 3's which I customized at purchase with upgrades of the stock drivers. Using the built in room equalization system in my AVR to assist my manual tweaking I got something that sounds great. I can say that at modest volume the Sony's by themselves sound pretty good with the equalization. However, I never use them alone in normal listening. No, they don't compete with the model 3s, but that wasn't the goal.
 

KaiserSoze

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I thought differently about these speakers. I bought them as rear surround speakers for my AVR. I have a still quite nice pair of Speakerlab Model 3's which I customized at purchase with upgrades of the stock drivers. Using the built in room equalization system in my AVR to assist my manual tweaking I got something that sounds great. I can say that at modest volume the Sony's by themselves sound pretty good with the equalization. However, I never use them alone in normal listening. No, they don't compete with the model 3s, but that wasn't the goal.

They aren't a bad speaker. The super tweeter may be little more than a gimmick, but even if so, it is still a small two-way bookshelf speaker that it is more or less comparable to a lot of other similar speakers that cost a whole lot more.
 

Abe_W

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Huh? 36 bucks a piece?!?!?! (And you cheapass audioscientists are complaining?!?! )

a) Buy it
b) Quit looking at the graphs and pressurizing your internal body cavities too much (unnecessarily)
c) Turn up the volume and start twerkin boys
 

muskrat

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I have taken apart a half a dozen of these cheap 3 ways recently. Even those with a 4 inch mid had a crossover consisting of a 2.2 uF cap to the mid and a 1-1.5 if cap to the tweet. Crossover points of 8k and 15k. No coils or resistors at all. You get some mid response from the shallow slope of the crossover and high efficiency of the drivers. Above 8k, ear splitting highs.
 

Sonny1

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I've heard both, obviously not in the best environment. But I remember being impressed with the build quality of both.

View attachment 65997View attachment 65998
I have a pair of the aluminum version, the ones pictured above. Impulse buy a few years ago. Build quality is surprisingly good. I was going to take them apart to have a look at the drivers/crossover but it’s too much work. Bought them from a former Sony rep who was selling all of his gear. Cool little speakers that I’ll probably sell someday (locally) one of these days.

Thanks for reminding me about these speakers. I totally forgot I had them.
 

Vladimir Filevski

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I have taken apart a half a dozen of these cheap 3 ways recently. Even those with a 4 inch mid had a crossover consisting of a 2.2 uF cap to the mid and a 1-1.5 if cap to the tweet. Crossover points of 8k and 15k. No coils or resistors at all. You get some mid response from the shallow slope of the crossover and high efficiency of the drivers. Above 8k, ear splitting highs.
Usually that is true, but not with Sony SS CS5 - see the crossover photo in the post #40, it has surprisingly elaborate crossover with quality parts. Unfortunately the tweeter distorts on higher SPL and can't reach high enough in frequency, necessitating a supertweeter.
But it is mystery to me why Sony didn't choose better tweeter? The price of this crap tweeter plus the supertweeter, plus supertweeter filter parts, must be higher than the price of a good tweeter. Maybe marketing trick to sale a "3-way" speaker, who knows...
 

KaiserSoze

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I have a pair of the aluminum version, the ones pictured above. Impulse buy a few years ago. Build quality is surprisingly good. I was going to take them apart to have a look at the drivers/crossover but it’s too much work. Bought them from a former Sony rep who was selling all of his gear. Cool little speakers that I’ll probably sell someday (locally) one of these days.

Thanks for reminding me about these speakers. I totally forgot I had them.

Aren't those speakers with the extra tweeter on the top more like the much more expensive models that are sold in the U.S.? I believe so. They may be worth more than you may have realized. And the crossovers are probably a good deal less simple than the crossovers in the SS-CS5.
 

Tim Link

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I must be too easily pleased. These little $75/ pair Sonys sound great to me nearfield at moderate volume. I've got them at my desk at work and in my bedroom system, which I've been listening to for about 6 hours tonight. In comparison my Grado SR325e headphones sound brighter and crunchier to my ears.
 

Tim Link

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It's hard to say with headphones since they interact differently with each person's ears. Most reviews I've read consider the SR325e to be neutral with no bass emphasis.
 

KaiserSoze

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I must be too easily pleased. These little $75/ pair Sonys sound great to me nearfield at moderate volume. I've got them at my desk at work and in my bedroom system, which I've been listening to for about 6 hours tonight. In comparison my Grado SR325e headphones sound brighter and crunchier to my ears.

Not necessarily pleased too easily. The speakers (you bought a pair for $75?) are not bad speakers by any stretch. They didn't get a buy recommendation from Amir but they still measured good in comparison with lots of speakers that cost a whole lot more. At the price, they are a steal. The reason they got a lot of criticism here is just that the super-tweeter is likely not doing anything except possibly adding a little boost in the upper octaves to the mostly on-axis response of the bigger tweeter. It does little if anything and serves mainly as a marketing gimmick, taking advantage of the fact that very many people will assume it is a better speaker by virtue of it being (ostensibly) a 3-way speaker. Regardless of whether you want to think of it as a 3-way speaker or as a 2-way speaker with a gimmick, it is good-sounding speaker that holds its own against a lot of speakers that cost a lot more. There are probably some $1,000/pr bookshelf speakers that don't sound significantly better.
 

AnalogSteph

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It's hard to say with headphones since they interact differently with each person's ears. Most reviews I've read consider the SR325e to be neutral with no bass emphasis.
From InnerFidelity -
SR325e:
innerf-sr325e-fr.png

Looks more civil than some Grados, but still not entirely devoid of the "built-in guitar amplifier" peaking and a good bit of treble spike.

For reference, a Sennheiser HD600, on the somewhat lighter side of neutral:
innerf-hd600-fr.png
 

Tim Link

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Not necessarily pleased too easily. The speakers (you bought a pair for $75?) are not bad speakers by any stretch. They didn't get a buy recommendation from Amir but they still measured good in comparison with lots of speakers that cost a whole lot more. At the price, they are a steal. The reason they got a lot of criticism here is just that the super-tweeter is likely not doing anything except possibly adding a little boost in the upper octaves to the mostly on-axis response of the bigger tweeter. It does little if anything and serves mainly as a marketing gimmick, taking advantage of the fact that very many people will assume it is a better speaker by virtue of it being (ostensibly) a 3-way speaker. Regardless of whether you want to think of it as a 3-way speaker or as a 2-way speaker with a gimmick, it is good-sounding speaker that holds its own against a lot of speakers that cost a lot more. There are probably some $1,000/pr bookshelf speakers that don't sound significantly better.
It's interesting to me that Amir perceives them as unpleasantly bright. I am bothered by my Athena AS-B1s for some reason. I went to the trouble of bypassing the crossovers and running them fully active. Various equalization and crossover settings didn't get me anywhere. I prefer these Sonys run stock on a cheap receiver. Not sure what's going on with the Athenas that makes them not work with my ears. A lot of people really liked the Athenas and I think they measured pretty good. So I can sympathize with Amir.
 

skymusic20

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I have these speakers (I got them more than 2 years ago) and listen to them on a daily basis.
I don't find them bright at all.
However, I agree with distortion, you can notice some distortion on the mid range frequencies but only if you turn up the volume and with some kind of music/recordings.
I have these speakers in my bedroom (and it is more on the small side), so I don't need to turn up the volume that much so not much problem with distortion.
 

Tim Link

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It's interesting to me that Amir perceives them as unpleasantly bright. I am bothered by my Athena AS-B1s for some reason. I went to the trouble of bypassing the crossovers and running them fully active. Various equalization and crossover settings didn't get me anywhere. I prefer these Sonys run stock on a cheap receiver. Not sure what's going on with the Athenas that makes them not work with my ears. A lot of people really liked the Athenas and I think they measured pretty good. So I can sympathize with Amir.
I'm replying to my own quote. After writing the above I got the Athena AS-B1s out of storage and had another listen. In direct comparison to the Sonys I think the Athenas sound smoother and fuller. That's not what I remember! I wasn't thinking it through. That's using them with two subwoofers crossed over at 100hz and listening nearfield. I never used them with subwoofers before, and always used the Sonys with subwoofers and some acoustic treatments in the room, so it wasn't a fair comparison. I still like the Sonys but like the Athenas better now. The listening environment I had the Athenas in earlier was bad - a small bedroom with no acoustic treatments and listening 7 feet back, and no subwoofer.
 

skymusic20

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I'm replying to my own quote. After writing the above I got the Athena AS-B1s out of storage and had another listen. In direct comparison to the Sonys I think the Athenas sound smoother and fuller. That's not what I remember! I wasn't thinking it through. That's using them with two subwoofers crossed over at 100hz and listening nearfield. I never used them with subwoofers before, and always used the Sonys with subwoofers and some acoustic treatments in the room, so it wasn't a fair comparison. I still like the Sonys but like the Athenas better now. The listening environment I had the Athenas in earlier was bad - a small bedroom with no acoustic treatments and listening 7 feet back, and no subwoofer.

Do you find the Sonys to be harsh and/or too bright (unpleasantly bright)?
Im not familiar with the Athena AS-B1. Are they more expensive than the Sonys?
Thanks
 
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