Sonos Five / Era 300 vs Sonos Amp + Airmotiv XB2 or Debut 3.0 DB63

[Connor1a]

Hello friendly crowd…

First, I realize that I’m asking for a bit of “apples vs oranges” advice here. However, this is the decision that’s weighing on me so I’m sending out a flare for advice…

As background, I’m currently a substantial Sonos client. I have a couple of Arcs, several Subs, a pair of Fives and then several Ones. So net / net, I’m fairly invested in their kit. Furthermore, while the internet has spent the last several months roasting Sonos due to their software fiasco, I’ve been relatively problem free (knock on wood). I’ve been using the Sonos app + Tidal’s app without any real issues throughout Sonos’ issues. I’ve also moved to a house where I’ve gone from Ethernet attached speakers to WiFi attached. Again, almost (almost - one small glitch that I had to resolve, but it was small) problem free.

That said, I’ve been looking at an analog stack for a long time. I may have the opportunity to pull the trigger on something later this month. If I do, I’d have ~1k$ USD budgeted. After cruising the internet, as well as ASR, I’ve been circling around the idea of using a Sonos Amp + either a pair of Emotiva Airmotiv XB2s or a pair of Elac Debut 3.0 DB63s. I’ve looked at dual mono block setups, which would be my preferred non Sonos setup (I was staring pretty hard at the Fosi v3 mono block), but I kept getting wrapped around the axle in selecting a preamp within my budget.

A final data point, right now I’m using the pair of Sonos Fives with a Sub (2.1 setup) for streaming music and as the Line-In device for my Fluance turntable. Were I to go with an analog stack, its main purpose would be to replace the pair of Fives (I have another home for them).

So where do the Era 300s come into play? I’ll explain. Were I not to go with an analog setup, I’d use my budget to buy a pair of either Era 300s or a new pair of Fives for my studio (art). Either would be a good fit, but the Era 300s (from what I’ve read) do a much better job bouncing sound around a room than the Fives. I’d be interested in trying that functionality out. Otherwise, I’d just buy a set of Fives.

So the crux of my decision is whether I make the jump to an analog stack using the Sonos Amp and either the Emotivas or the Elacs or whether I maintain my active speaker ecosystem and go with (likely) a pair of Era 300s or Fives. Price wise, I have a 30% coupon from Sonos so the Amp / pair(s) of speakers are fairly reasonable price wise. I’d be well under my budget unless I looked at another sub (which I might - the sub mini pairs well with the Era 300s). Going down the analog path would be right at the top end of my budget. Functionality wise, both approaches would fit within my Sonos ecosystem so that’d be a wash. The question is whether the two passive speaker options (driven by the Sonos amp) would out perform the two active speaker options in my setup. My rooms are relatively small, but I do want the flexibility to drive larger rooms at some point in the future (not operating halls). Again, this is for streaming (primary use) and as an analog in for my turntable (secondary use). I’m relatively certain I know where the opinions will land, but you guys know your stuff and I’m very interested in your opinions. And then, are there potentially better analog bookshelf speaker options I’m not considering? I’ve also looked at the KEF Q350s, but the Emotivas and Elacs both seemed to garner better reviews. There were a pair of JBLs that looked interesting as well as a pair of Sony’s. There are clearly other options.

Anyway, you guys are always wiling to help a guy out. I sincerely appreciate it if you’ve read this far. Music is an important part of everyday for me so this decision is important not only for monetary reasons. Thanks much in advance…

 

[GXAlan]

Sonos Amp has no Trueplay although people have used the official speaker like a dongle. The Era 300 is spectacular for its size.

The problem is that the Sonos Amp has superb HDMI CEC with Dolby decoding, allowing for wireless surrounds and subs. However it doesn’t work with the Era 300 as wireless rears whereas the soundbars do.

The way I would look at it is to consider trying the Era 300. It’s not endgame, but when you outgrow it, it’s still usable as a lifestyle speaker. The Sonos Amp is less effective as a path forward but in the immediate present, a lot of people really like it for that family-friendly reliability.

 

[Connor1a]

Sonos Amp has no Trueplay although people have used the official speaker like a dongle. The Era 300 is spectacular for its size.

The problem is that the Sonos Amp has superb HDMI CEC with Dolby decoding, allowing for wireless surrounds and subs. However it doesn’t work with the Era 300 as wireless rears whereas the soundbars do.

The way I would look at it is to consider trying the Era 300. It’s not endgame, but when you outgrow it, it’s still usable as a lifestyle speaker. The Sonos Amp is less effective as a path forward but in the immediate present, a lot of people really like it for that family-friendly reliability.

Thank you for the reply. The Era 300 really intrigue me (though were the rumors of an Era 500 true this would be a much shorter discussion). I can get a pair off Sonos for 600$ delivered (770$ for a pair of Fives - not really much of a premium for “HiFi”). I can then add a sub mini for another 360$ (would they need a sub?). That’s a tough price point to beat when considering the alternative (even a class D amp + passive speakers + cables + no sub => 1k$). Still, I’ve never had a chance to really sit down and listen to them. Will they outperform (or at least stand as a near peer to) a set of Elacs or Emotivas. It’s a tough call. Staying within the Sonos ecosystem has its appeal, true enough, but if I’m going to make a choice to diverge, this is the time. Otherwise, I’ll keep adding little black, vibrating boxes (grin). Still, I do like the idea of demoing a set of 300s (even if potentially sending them back is a pain in the backside - though who am I kidding, once a speaker crosses my threshold, it’ll never leave). I’m still on the fence. It’d be so easy just to buy a set of 300s though…

 

[Ellebob]

As a generalization if one was to build two identical speakers, one active and one passive, the active would have superior performance. However, things are never that simple and these aren't the same speakers. It is tough for us to tell you which you would prefer.

One advantage of active speakers is many of them boost the bass at lower volumes or to get more bass from smaller woofers. So something like an Era 300 with its smaller woofer will probably have equal or more bass than the Elac/Airmotiv with a larger woofer. The tradeoff is the Era probably won't be able to play as loud. So that is another consideration is how loud you like to play them. All of these could benefit from a sub.

 

[Connor1a]

Thank you for your reply.

So I’m an old punk and alternative rock guy. My hearing is compromised due to one too many loud concerts as a kid. As a result, I now tend to listen to music loud and with a lot of bass. My music choices come with the bass and then my hearing drives up the volume. That’s one issue I have with the Sonos Fives. They can get distorted at higher volumes (depending on the source). Anything I add would need to outperform the Fives at higher volumes. I know the 300s can’t drive the same volume which is a concern for me.

Ack! The Emotivas are 20% off. Just saw it. So now they’re down to 399$. That’s a pretty good deal no? I’m sorely tempted to pick them up (though I was leaning toward the Elacs). Tough call!

I realize the Sonos Amp isn’t ideal as a 2.1 device when compared some other options (though it did get a good review here as a streaming / HDMI amp - it’s Line-In performance wasn’t ideal though), but it may be a good entry into the analog world for me or am I completely missing the plot here. I’m still not clear on whether a pair of Era 300, in my setup, would be a better fit than a Sonos Amp driving a pair of Emotivas or Elacs (also looking at the Debut Reference btw). It sounds like you’re suggesting that the active speakers (Era 300s or Fives) would outperform (sound better - also with room shaping via Trueplay) than the analog speakers with the possible exception that they may not get as loud. Am I understanding correctly?

Thanks again!

 

[GXAlan]

As a result, I now tend to listen to music loud and with a lot of bass. My music choices come with the bass and then my hearing drives up the volume. That’s one issue I have with the Sonos Fives. They can get distorted at higher volumes (depending on the source).

It sounds like you’re suggesting that the active speakers (Era 300s or Fives) would outperform (sound better - also with room shaping via Trueplay) than the analog speakers with the possible exception that they may not get as loud. Am I understanding correctly?

That’s my impression. But the Sonos system doesn’t give you the bass you want (I have used dual Sub3’s) and the Era300 doesn’t get as loud as the Sonos Five which means it’s the wrong choice for you.

In your case, the Sonos Amp is better because you can combine a decent passive speaker with a high output subwoofer for the bass you need. HSU, PowerSoundAudio and even the Monolith subs.

 

[Ellebob]

A lot of factors here on active vs passive, size of speakers and listening preference.

Listening preference
We are less sensitive to bass at low volumes, so it is often preferable to boost bass at lower volumes. We have known this for a long time and old time receivers used to have a loudness button or knob to achieve this. With modern technology this can be built in where the speaker or receiver adds bass boost for lower volumes and brings it back to flat at higher volumes.
Many smaller active speakers have a bass boost and protection if turned up this is tougher to achieve with passives. So many active small speakers can sound good at lower volumes and compete with larger speakers with larger woofers.

Speaker size. Keeping it simple.
If you want to play loud you need bigger speakers. Also, for bass you need bigger woofers. No speaker with 3 or 4 inch woofers (Era 300 or Sonos Five) is going to keep up natively (No EQ) with a larger speaker with bigger woofers like a 6 or 8 inch. At lower volumes we can boost a small speaker's bass so it will sound comparable to the larger speaker. But that smaller woofer will run out of steam and distort if playing loud.

Active vs passive.
A lot more complex topic. A crossover in a 2 way passive speaker does two basic things. It removes the highs from the woofer, and removes the lows from the tweeter. This crossover circuit uses the some of amps power to do this and causes some distortion.
In an active speaker design, the crossover is done electronically which allows it to be a lot more precise and easier to build in speaker protection, also the woofer and tweeter each get their own amp. Directly powering each driver reduces distortion and other benefits. In a nutshell, if one was to build identical speakers one active and one passive, the active would outperform the passive.

That being said. Are all actives better than all passives about the same size. ABSOLUTELY NOT!
I would rather have a well designed passive speaker over a cheap active. A ton of considerations.

If you like to turn it up occasionally then a bigger speaker is recommended. The Era 300 or Sonos Five won't cut it even with a subwoofer. If you are considering a bookshelf sized speaker I would definitely recommend getting a subwoofer no matter which direction you go, even if you have to add it later.

Another option is a Sonos port with active speakers and a sub. The sub would need to have a crossover with RCA ins and outs since the Port does not have a subwoofer out.

Hope this isn't too winded

 

[Connor1a]

A lot of factors here on active vs passive, size of speakers and listening preference.

Listening preference
We are less sensitive to bass at low volumes, so it is often preferable to boost bass at lower volumes. We have known this for a long time and old time receivers used to have a loudness button or knob to achieve this. With modern technology this can be built in where the speaker or receiver adds bass boost for lower volumes and brings it back to flat at higher volumes.
Many smaller active speakers have a bass boost and protection if turned up this is tougher to achieve with passives. So many active small speakers can sound good at lower volumes and compete with larger speakers with larger woofers.

Speaker size. Keeping it simple.
If you want to play loud you need bigger speakers. Also, for bass you need bigger woofers. No speaker with 3 or 4 inch woofers (Era 300 or Sonos Five) is going to keep up natively (No EQ) with a larger speaker with bigger woofers like a 6 or 8 inch. At lower volumes we can boost a small speaker's bass so it will sound comparable to the larger speaker. But that smaller woofer will run out of steam and distort if playing loud.

Active vs passive.
A lot more complex topic. A crossover in a 2 way passive speaker does two basic things. It removes the highs from the woofer, and removes the lows from the tweeter. This crossover circuit uses the some of amps power to do this and causes some distortion.
In an active speaker design, the crossover is done electronically which allows it to be a lot more precise and easier to build in speaker protection, also the woofer and tweeter each get their own amp. Directly powering each driver reduces distortion and other benefits. In a nutshell, if one was to build identical speakers one active and one passive, the active would outperform the passive.

That being said. Are all actives better than all passives about the same size. ABSOLUTELY NOT!
I would rather have a well designed passive speaker over a cheap active. A ton of considerations.

If you like to turn it up occasionally then a bigger speaker is recommended. The Era 300 or Sonos Five won't cut it even with a subwoofer. If you are considering a bookshelf sized speaker I would definitely recommend getting a subwoofer no matter which direction you go, even if you have to add it later.

Another option is a Sonos port with active speakers and a sub. The sub would need to have a crossover with RCA ins and outs since the Port does not have a subwoofer out.

Hope this isn't too winded

Not too long winded in the least! In fact, it made me think. This is interesting stuff.

As a baseline... Sonos doesn’t publish much in the way of internal specs for their equipment. What I was able to unearth. The Sonos Five comes with three 10cm (3.9”) center firing midrange drivers, two side firing 20mm (0.8”) tweeters and one center firing 22mm driver (0.9”). Supposedly, it has six individual Class-D amplifiers totaling 300 watts of power. Specs for the Sonos Sub are two 6” x 4” pill shaped, force cancelling bass drivers served by dual 125 watt Class-D amps. Of course, what this all means without knowing the sensitivity or impedance of the drivers is… well… perhaps not a lot. But its something to stare at. On paper, that baseline appears to be fairly powerful no?

In contrast, I’m looking at the Sonos Amp which is rated at 125 watts per channel @ 8 ohms / 250 watts per channel at 4 ohms. The Emotivas run with 4 ohms nominal, 86 db sensitivity and like > 50 watts power (125 watts continuous / 200 watts peak). The Elac runs at 6 ohms nominal, 87 db sensitivity and likes > 20 watts (120 watts peak). The Emotivas consist of a 25mm x 32mm folded ribbon tweeter + a 6” bass driver. The Elac comes with a 1” tweeter + a 6.5” bass driver.

Knowing absolutely zero (or near zero) about all this other than that I love listening to music (loud and thumping, but I also want to hear the details), on paper, the Sonos active speaker baseline combination “appears” to be richer than the Sonos Amp + passive speaker combination. What I mean is that it seems like the baseline would produce richer music because it has a greater number of speakers all specifically tuned to work together and with their own dedicated Class-D amps. Etc. However, much, not all, but much of the feedback I’ve received is that the analog chain will blow the doors off the Sonos Fives w/ a Sub at any volume level. It’s not that I doubt what people have said, they clearly know much much more about all this than I do, but it’s not intuitive. Does that make sense? I’m fully prepared to bite off a Sonos Amp + a pair of passive speakers (I’m still on the fence between the Emotivas and the Elacs + I’m also looking at the Elac Reference series bookshelfs - I’ll need to blind buy a set as I can’t find a place to listen to them locally - I’d value any opinions between the three - or the KEF q150s / q350s for that matter).

My apologies for the long winded response. I do sincerely appreciate your time. Thanks so much.

 

[GXAlan]

I owned all of the combos you describe in the Sonos world. “Thumping” is hard for Sonos.

What you really want is the Devialet Phantom when it comes to sound signature, but the Devialet software is buggy and the company is in administration, so it’s a tough scenario. I had a pair of Phantom Silvers before swapping them for all Sonos.

The new driver technology in the new Sonos Arc Ultra may make its way to their speaker line.

You may actually want to consider something like the Klipsch Nines

Klipsch The Nines integrated loudspeaker system Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements I performed the measurements with the Klipsch The Nines Primary speaker (serial number 107128623160250). Before I started the testing, I installed the Klipsch Connect app on my iPad mini and paired it with the speaker with Bluetooth. I used the app to set the equalizer...

www.stereophile.com

 

[Ellebob]

Since I work in this industry and we carry Sonos where I work I am very familiar with Sonos. Except for running into them at customer's homes and trade shows I don't have a lot of experience with Elac or Emotiva. Although I did calibrate a customer's Emotiav system a while ago and they didn't blow me away but I am sure that was the older models.

Anyway, to me it is all analog! We don't hear in digital so somewhere along the line it gets converted to analog when listening to a digital source like Sonos. The question is what part of the chain it gets converted.

If I was looking at staying in the Sonos architecture for say under approximately $1000 counting 30% off Sonos. The Fives are pretty good but do have limitations when turned up, so I would rule those out. I would probably do a Sonos Port with one of the following pair of speakers. Kali LP-6/LP-8, JBL LSR 306/308, Focal Alpha 65, Adam T7V/T8V.

On the passive side. Maybe Paradigm Monitor or premier series. Not the most accurate but have a little bass boost. We carry Kef at work and they are definitely more accurate and generally I prefer accurate speakers progbably while many studio monitors. The Kefs have a nice sound but are a little dull to me, meaning lacking dynamics. But , a lot of people love them but this is one of those instancesI would choose the Paradigm over them for better dispersion (horizontally of course) and dynamics. I think the kefs with a separate woofer are much better, it is probably asking too much of a coaxial driver without a separate woofer. But, that is a different price range. I would also look at Ascend Acoustics for an internet brand.

 

[Dan8558]

Do you want to listen to Spatial Audio from a service like Apple Music or Amazon? If not, I wouldn’t buy the Era 300s. I have a pair of 300s and they do a great job with Spatial Audio in an enclosed room. In my more open living room, they’re less impressive.

 

[Connor1a]

Do you want to listen to Spatial Audio from a service like Apple Music or Amazon? If not, I wouldn’t buy the Era 300s. I have a pair of 300s and they do a great job with Spatial Audio in an enclosed room. In my more open living room, they’re less impressive.

I do enjoy Spatial Audio, but it’s not the main style of music I listen. There’s not a lot of it available just yet. For example, Apple Music lists “thousands of songs” available in Spatial Audio within their 100 million song library. That’s <= 0.001% or some such. I’d love to have a pair of 300s for my art studio though. It’s a relatively small room where I think the 300s would shine, but I only have one 30% coupon which I’m holding onto for a Sonos Amp (or another pair of Fives which I think are overall more versatile than the 300s in my space - that’s an opinion that’s growing on me over time as I read).

 

[Connor1a]

Since I work in this industry and we carry Sonos where I work I am very familiar with Sonos. Except for running into them at customer's homes and trade shows I don't have a lot of experience with Elac or Emotiva. Although I did calibrate a customer's Emotiav system a while ago and they didn't blow me away but I am sure that was the older models.

Anyway, to me it is all analog! We don't hear in digital so somewhere along the line it gets converted to analog when listening to a digital source like Sonos. The question is what part of the chain it gets converted.

If I was looking at staying in the Sonos architecture for say under approximately $1000 counting 30% off Sonos. The Fives are pretty good but do have limitations when turned up, so I would rule those out. I would probably do a Sonos Port with one of the following pair of speakers. Kali LP-6/LP-8, JBL LSR 306/308, Focal Alpha 65, Adam T7V/T8V.

On the passive side. Maybe Paradigm Monitor or premier series. Not the most accurate but have a little bass boost. We carry Kef at work and they are definitely more accurate and generally I prefer accurate speakers progbably while many studio monitors. The Kefs have a nice sound but are a little dull to me, meaning lacking dynamics. But , a lot of people love them but this is one of those instancesI would choose the Paradigm over them for better dispersion (horizontally of course) and dynamics. I think the kefs with a separate woofer are much better, it is probably asking too much of a coaxial driver without a separate woofer. But, that is a different price range. I would also look at Ascend Acoustics for an internet brand.

Have you had a chance to listen to the Elac Debut Reference DBR-62 speakers? They received a great review here on ASR (link below). They’re on my shortlist. Any perspective on the KEF Q150 vs the Q350? The Reddit crowd - Ack! - debate which of the two are the better speaker with a surprising number weighing in for the Q150. I’m wondering about a pair of Q150s + and 8” sub…

Elac Debut Reference DBR-62 Speaker Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Elac Debut Reference DBR-62 bookshelf speaker. It was kindly purchased new and drop shipped to me for testing. The DBR-62 costs US $600 a pair from multiple sources/dealers. The DBR-62 comes in black and walnut finish or the distressed Oak and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Connor1a]

I owned all of the combos you describe in the Sonos world. “Thumping” is hard for Sonos.

What you really want is the Devialet Phantom when it comes to sound signature, but the Devialet software is buggy and the company is in administration, so it’s a tough scenario. I had a pair of Phantom Silvers before swapping them for all Sonos.

The new driver technology in the new Sonos Arc Ultra may make its way to their speaker line.

You may actually want to consider something like the Klipsch Nines

Klipsch The Nines integrated loudspeaker system Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements I performed the measurements with the Klipsch The Nines Primary speaker (serial number 107128623160250). Before I started the testing, I installed the Klipsch Connect app on my iPad mini and paired it with the speaker with Bluetooth. I used the app to set the equalizer...

www.stereophile.com

There’ve been rumors of an Era 500 for quite awhile. It wouldn’t be out of the range of possibility that we’d see those drivers show up in something like that, but if we did, you’d think they’d want them on the market right now, before Thanksgiving…

 

[Ellebob]

Have you had a chance to listen to the Elac Debut Reference DBR-62 speakers? They received a great review here on ASR (link below). They’re on my shortlist. Any perspective on the KEF Q150 vs the Q350? The Reddit crowd - Ack! - debate which of the two are the better speaker with a surprising number weighing in for the Q150. I’m wondering about a pair of Q150s + and 8” sub…

Elac Debut Reference DBR-62 Speaker Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Elac Debut Reference DBR-62 bookshelf speaker. It was kindly purchased new and drop shipped to me for testing. The DBR-62 costs US $600 a pair from multiple sources/dealers. The DBR-62 comes in black and walnut finish or the distressed Oak and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I haven't heard the DBR-62, so I can't comment on them personally. As far as the Kef goes I wouldn't spend the extra for the Q350 over the Q150 especially if using a sub. The best advice I can give is to listen to speakers you are considering, preferably in your room if possible.

Some observations working in this industry. I have read most of the research showing that in blind tests people prefer accurate speakers with good dispersion. I know personally that I prefer accurate speakers but there are exceptions. I often get asked by enthusiasts what speakers they should audition. I often give recommendations with accurate speakers and many from brands we do not carry like Revel, Focal, etc. We don't have a showroom. Anyway, many people that have went to various Hifi stores and listened to many brands and they often choose non-accurate speakers like B&W, Sonus Faber, etc. So, something is lacking with the research when I see this happen frequently. I don't know if it is listening time, non-level matched comparisons, etc. I also know a lot of companies do research but don't publish their results to the public. Again, a lot of variables. That's why the best advice is to try and listen to what you like.

 

[Pritaudio]

Audio pro c20