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Some things to know about ASR and the Objectivity vs. Subjectivity trap

Colonel7

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I've noticed of late that a number of threads devolve quickly into objectivist versus subjectivist name-calling or strawmen. This often happens when someone new gets on the site. Some things for all to consider but especially new folks.

This is Audio Science Review. The name has meaning.

Measurements have value. If objective measurements are done consistently according to established and accepted methods, we have bases for comparison. People here are passionate about this. They are also passionate about what it is that can be and should be measured, and how that is done. If you don't agree with these statements or are not at least open to them then there are probably better sites and fora for you.

Measurements inform us as does the community. There are a lot of different types of folks here. Some want to be better informed about audio and are on a lifelong journey for knowledge. To name just a few, these can be enthusiasts, sound engineers, speaker designers, software architects, journalists, gear restoration experts, repair technicians, and some who've literally written the book(s) on sound. People are incredibly giving of their knowledge and often their money through donations or gear to be tested by Amir--nevermind Amir who tests, writes, reviews, and provides us with this opportunity. Please remember that.

For some measurements help to make decisions, like what to purchase or not to purchase, or for an objective reality test. There's been a lot of myths and pseudoscientific "products" debunked here. At the same time a lot of folks like me originally stumbled upon this site to gauge a purchase--a site with real and replicable measurements! Some just might want to see what Amir recommends or a score and that's fine. They might just stay and learn.

Purchasing decisions are bound by individual use cases and this centers on what is valued--in other words where the lines between objectivity and subjectivity start to blur.

Use cases are defined by our preferences and vice versa. It could be the room, aesthetics, where designed or manufactured, absolute state-of-the-art, DIY, near-field, off-axis, fixed budget, digital only, all-in-one, no subs, multiple subs, resale, decades of durability, one music genre only, pc only, mechanical over software, planar over box, and on and on. This is subjective and based on our preferences. So please don't claim only measurements or only listening experience are the two buckets (or pits) everyone else falls into.

At the end of the day this is a learning community and wer'e here to learn about audio. Scientifically of course!;)
 

sergeauckland

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Although I completely agree with Colonel7's post, I would counsel against being any less welcoming to those 'subjectivists' who might venture here.

Subjectivism like any 'ism' takes many forms. There are those for whom 'I heard it so it's true' means that they won't respond well to our ethos, and indeed will probably be happier, if less well informed, by going elsewhere. Then there are those who take the view that they don't care if something measures better, they like what they have as it sounds good to them, and it's their system, their money. That's fine as far as I'm concerned, as long as they don't claim theirs is 'better', just what they prefer. I this category I would put Macintosh owners for whom the look, history, reliability and resale value outweigh other criteria. In some respects I understand that as I love my AEG and EMT turntables as examples of superlative engineering.

Then there are those who actually believe what they have is better than something clearly technically better, saying what the other stuff is 'sterile, clinical, etc etc. actually all attributes I would find attractive. Finally (there are probably others, I just can't think of any right now) who are wilfully ignorant. They use equipment that's totally flawed, technically broken, but refuse to understand what's wrong with their approach. The equivalent of putting their fingers in their ears and shouting LA LA LA so they can't hear what they're being told. In this are those who use equipment that's totally finicky about loading or cables or loudspeakers as they're inherently unstable and unprotected. These to me are the worse of subjectivism, 'don't know, don't want to know, I believe.'

We, as a community should welcome all those who want to learn, we can't do anything about the wilfully ignorant but we could educate the others.

S
 
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wwenze

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The objectivist versus subjectivist battle doesn't even reach that point.

It's usually stuck at "objectively, via measurements and double-blind testing, we conclude this thing has no detectable effect", vs "subjectively, we hear a difference".

Personal preferences are objectively measurable. Room, aesthetics*, where designed or manufactured, near-field, off-axis, durability......
*If I buy something because I like the aesthetics, I have a photo to prove that it looks different from, say, amplifier B. Same for country of origin^ etc.
If you want something that has USB? You can get something that has USB. Something with good off-axis behavior? Get something with good off-axis behavior then. Want more bass? Get more bass.
^Country of origin, interestingly, can be faked. Just slap a European name on a Chinese product.

Say for example you personally prefer more bass. And somebody recommend a Yamaha HS5 saying it has more-than-average bass. This is an obvious example since there are many measurements and users saying it is the opposite. But imagine if we didn't have such information.

Now, somebody comes saying his DAC is better / sounds better, or his schumann resonance generator changes the sound. (I separated "is better" and "sounds better" because the proof and hence the test is different between the two.) People use the product and say it is better or subjectively sounds better. While the objective method detects the contrary. This is the objectivist vs subjectivist war.
 

Blujackaal

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Noticed the immaturity from myself, When I've questioned stuff like "BA bass" or "BA timbre"?. Came back with replies of them upset that FR chart, CSD, more disagree with them.
 

Thomas savage

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We've got to remain open and as friendly as possible in order to not be dismissed out of hand and rendered irrelevant.

This is a challenge for us all me included.

There's likely no thanks for it and you have to go without your smart arse satisfaction that comes from giving them some ridicule.

Bummer !
 

carlob

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I am an objectivist, so I trust measurements. The one thing that bothers me is the unnecessary rudeness that sometimes I read on this forum and also sometimes a certain form of extremism (same extremism many subjectivists have, only opposite). Rudeness is the worst: things can be explained in a polite way, to be rude is not the best way if you want the others to listen.
 

majingotan

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Noticed the immaturity from myself, When I've questioned stuff like "BA bass" or "BA timbre"?. Came back with replies of them upset that FR chart, CSD, more disagree with them.

Those BA timbre and BA bass can be measured with FR, CSD, fundamental and harmonic tone graphs. "BA Bass" may have been a result of poor low frequency harmonic measurements, terrible CSD graphs in low frequencies and terrible low frequency extension, and BA timbre is mostly attributed to elevated upper mid frequencies. If you look at CA Andromeda FR chart, it would show that a dip in 4 KHz results to less emphasis in the timbre that sounds very "plasticky" rather than "nasal" (hate describing sound in subjective audiophool term). Anyways, the FR tuning of CA Andromeda, despite deviating far from Harman, diffuse, Etymotic, whatever target curve that comes up these days, is designed to eliminate that "BA timbre" and "BA bass" that you're questioning. Also, I own the V-shaped tuned CA Vega pure DD driver, and comparing Andromeda's "BA Bass" to Vega's DD bass, I don't find the Andromeda bass lacking in resolving a deep movie level cinematic bass fully
 

Blujackaal

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Those BA timbre and BA bass can be measured with FR, CSD, fundamental and harmonic tone graphs. "BA Bass" may have been a result of poor low frequency harmonic measurements, terrible CSD graphs in low frequencies and terrible low frequency extension, and BA timbre is mostly attributed to elevated upper mid frequencies. If you look at CA Andromeda FR chart, it would show that a dip in 4 KHz results to less emphasis in the timbre that sounds very "plasticky" rather than "nasal" (hate describing sound in subjective audiophool term). Anyways, the FR tuning of CA Andromeda, despite deviating far from Harman, diffuse, Etymotic, whatever target curve that comes up these days, is designed to eliminate that "BA timbre" and "BA bass" that you're questioning. Also, I own the V-shaped tuned CA Vega pure DD driver, and comparing Andromeda's "BA Bass" to Vega's DD bass, I don't find the Andromeda bass lacking in resolving a deep movie level cinematic bass fully

So what your saying is that the LCD/HE4XX can't out bass the HD650?. No idea what part of fast decay in the bass is not sinking in?, The slow decay of DDs is why the ER2SE sounds warmer despite being as flat as the ER4SR.

Not even gonna touch the BA timbre bit since that bit reeks of people being used to the limitions that dynamic drivers have or FR quirks. I have had someone use Crins ER4SR FR how it got a -10db dip at 12KHz yet there are 4 other FR charts that show no such dips reviewers run too & not even Etymotics own FR charts show shuch dips.

Like this sheet you get with a ER4XR/SR?.
 

A800

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One-sided is always a trap.
Balance is the key.
Example:
Stereo playback.
 

ZolaIII

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Only one thing is certain, we all are objectively subjectiv as we are subjects and there for we include only thing's that we know or think we know. But authority thrue experience still stands as it brings included knowledge trogh dealing with it. What this place desperately needs is standardised terminology and without shortcuts and acronyms with detail and accurate descriptions. We tend to simply thing's subjectively ruling out relevant things (such as IMD, EMI...).
 

majingotan

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So what your saying is that the LCD/HE4XX can't out bass the HD650?. No idea what part of fast decay in the bass is not sinking in?, The slow decay of DDs is why the ER2SE sounds warmer despite being as flat as the ER4SR.

Not even gonna touch the BA timbre bit since that bit reeks of people being used to the limitions that dynamic drivers have or FR quirks. I have had someone use Crins ER4SR FR how it got a -10db dip at 12KHz yet there are 4 other FR charts that show no such dips reviewers run too & not even Etymotics own FR charts show shuch dips.

Like this sheet you get with a ER4XR/SR?.

Regarding treble, those frequencies at 10KHz or higher are much more directional than bass frequencies, thus having a different treble curve on different measuring setup and HTRF for headphones and inner ear HTRF (for IEMs)

Focusing on the bass, the LCD-X can pump out as much bass volume as your EQ allows just the feeling of faster decay compared to something like the HD650 with bass boost. As for BA vs DD bass, due to the faster decay of the BA drivers, the bass is just as loud as DD bass but the notes aren’t heard as “warm” as you noted. The bass from Andromeda can be perceived like the whole IEM is vibrating without sounding warm when turned up to 100 dB or higher. I still side with the objective approach to bass response: least amount of waterfall decay while providing measured flat frequency down to 20 Hz (even though the human ear is least sensitive in hearing at those frequencies)
 

BostonJack

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I agree that some elements of purchases are purely (or nearly purely) subjective.
For example, I have a real desire to purchase Revel M16 speakers partly because *they are beautifully finished*, which is wholly legitimate.

I also have a JDS Labs Atom amp and a THX 789, both of which are *way* beyond any ability of my aural apparatus to detect distortion, hence, overkill.

I like the Schitt Vidar and Saga+ because they are acceptable and they are responding to objective criticism (but not perfect) and their marketing schtick is funny.

If I buy the M16's I will live with an Onkyo receiver for a while, even though its 0.08% THD is ah, not great, because I just got laid off from a tech big, well funded startup ($430 million VC funding) and the chances of me, at age 65, maintaining a solid engineering salary for two, three years just got a *lot* worse.

I think that last bit qualifies as part of the "use" case.

Jack
 

BostonJack

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I agree that some elements of purchases are purely (or nearly purely) subjective.
For example, I have a real desire to purchase Revel M16 speakers partly because *they are beautifully finished*, which is wholly legitimate.

I also have a JDS Labs Atom amp and a THX 789, both of which are *way* beyond any ability of my aural apparatus to detect distortion, hence, overkill.

I like the Schitt Vidar and Saga+ because they are acceptable and they are responding to objective criticism (but not perfect) and their marketing schtick is funny.

If I buy the M16's I will live with an Onkyo receiver for a while, even though its 0.08% THD is ah, not great, because I just got laid off from a tech big, well funded startup ($430 million VC funding) and the chances of me, at age 65, maintaining a solid engineering salary for two, three years just got a *lot* worse.

I think that last bit qualifies as part of the "use" case.

Jack

As a side note: I considered the Elac DBR-62's but they are just too square and borderline ugly, which is not what I want.
 

Speedskater

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In engineering land the word 'subjective' has one meaning, while in audiophile land it has a very different meaning.
In engineering land, Floyd Toole & Sean Olive ask an ears only listener to rate a quality or a product.
While in audiophile land, it means whatever that writer writes is correct.
 

Thomas savage

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In engineering land the word 'subjective' has one meaning, while in audiophile land it has a very different meaning.
In engineering land, Floyd Toole & Sean Olive ask an ears only listener to rate a quality or a product.
While in audiophile land, it means whatever that writer writes is correct.
It means ' truth ' and is valid beyond all reason.

Breaking that self affirmation circle is hard, the rewards for doing so not all that obvious or convincing for them and maybe for some of you .
 

Blujackaal

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Regarding treble, those frequencies at 10KHz or higher are much more directional than bass frequencies, thus having a different treble curve on different measuring setup and HTRF for headphones and inner ear HTRF (for IEMs)

Focusing on the bass, the LCD-X can pump out as much bass volume as your EQ allows just the feeling of faster decay compared to something like the HD650 with bass boost. As for BA vs DD bass, due to the faster decay of the BA drivers, the bass is just as loud as DD bass but the notes aren’t heard as “warm” as you noted. The bass from Andromeda can be perceived like the whole IEM is vibrating without sounding warm when turned up to 100 dB or higher. I still side with the objective approach to bass response: least amount of waterfall decay while providing measured flat frequency down to 20 Hz (even though the human ear is least sensitive in hearing at those frequencies)

The Andro has a 6db bass boost over the ER2SE/ER4SR, Notes at 50 ~ 200Hz linger more on the 2SE than 3SE/4SR on Sunn O)))'s grimrobes demo. The ER3/ER4 sound much more focused & tight even with a bass boost, With the ER2/others it sounds almost like it too slow to keep up. Which is even worse when it very fast death metal or Electronic that 2x faster & heavier.
 

majingotan

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The Andro has a 6db bass boost over the ER2SE/ER4SR, Notes at 50 ~ 200Hz linger more on the 2SE than 3SE/4SR on Sunn O)))'s grimrobes demo. The ER3/ER4 sound much more focused & tight even with a bass boost, With the ER2/others it sounds almost like it too slow to keep up. Which is even worse when it very fast death metal or Electronic that 2x faster & heavier.

Yes the Andromeda has 6 dB boost yet the boost curve is rather flat (should’ve worded it as flat frequency only on the bass frequency region irrespective of the FR response in the mids and treble). To my subjective preferences, the Andromeda still sounds tight and focused on the bass frequencies (benefit of flatter bass curve and faster decay of the BA) albeit you perceive it as louder with respect to mid and treble frequencies due to bass boost. Listening to double kick drums on a “speed metal” genre such as from dragonforce or fast electronics from infected mushroom is a wonderful delight with speakers/headphones/IEMs with excellent CSD waterfall response on the bass to my subjective preferences
 

Blujackaal

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[
Yes the Andromeda has 6 dB boost yet the boost curve is rather flat (should’ve worded it as flat frequency only on the bass frequency region irrespective of the FR response in the mids and treble). To my subjective preferences, the Andromeda still sounds tight and focused on the bass frequencies (benefit of flatter bass curve and faster decay of the BA) albeit you perceive it as louder with respect to mid and treble frequencies due to bass boost. Listening to double kick drums on a “speed metal” genre such as from dragonforce or fast electronics from infected mushroom is a wonderful delight with speakers/headphones/IEMs with excellent CSD waterfall response on the bass to my subjective preferences

The andro & etymotic ER3 are steals since planar/estat headphones can cost way more performance wise. I'm a power metal fan faster driver like the ER3/ER4 let artists like that shine.
 
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Prep74

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I've never really understood this objectivist v subjectivist thing.

Aren't we all subjectivists and have different tastes in music and sounds? The main difference I see between objectivists and subjectivists in popular parlance is the former tries to relate their experience with objective measurements and an understanding of the science behind it while the latter only believes their perceptions matter, even if unsupported by objectivity.
 
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