Some actually believe that music from different drive types (SSD,HDD) or different SATA cables can sound different

[danadam]

For a .wav or other uncompressed format it actually takes a substantial amount of corruption before that becomes very audible. I mean it's not like zeroing out or maximizing 1 single [email protected] is going to be audible.

That depends where it happens. If zeroing happens during a quiet passage or maximizing happens during a loud passage then it may pass unnoticed. If opposite then it will probably be very easy to notice.

Here are some examples with zeroing:

Time resolution of digital sampling

audiophilestyle.com

Here are some examples with a single bit flipping:

Intel CPUs Don’t Support ECC Memory: How Bad For A/V Quality?

This discussion may only serve to reveal my less than complete knowledge of A/V digital signal processing rather than raise questions which audibly or not impact signal quality. However, the concerns raised stem from here. https://www.google.com/amp/s/arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/01/linus-torvald...

audiophilestyle.com

 

[krabapple]

I'm curious as to what sort of data damage, due to a bad drive, is going to cause a zero or max-level sample to newly occur on playback?

 

[JSmith]

Inexpensive memory IC's coupled with a low quality SATA/USB controller can give lowers sound quality.

JSmith

 

[Kiko1974]

View attachment 424931


JSmith

I respect your laughing, but as I think a low quality optical drive, for CD's or SACD's for example, can give subpar sound quality, the same MAY happen with SSD's.
That an optical drive or an SSD can read the data, It doesn't mean that is doing It in optimal conditions.

 

[antcollinet]

I respect your laughing, but as I think a low quality optical drive, for CD's or SACD's for example, can give subpar sound quality, the same MAY happen with SSD's.
That an optical drive or an SSD can read the data, It doesn't mean that is doing It in optimal conditions.

You thinking it, and it being factually correct are not the same thing.

A correctly functioning optical drive of any quality will sound the same as any other correctly functioning optical drive, if the data is converted using the same DAC.

 

[Doodski]

I respect your laughing, but as I think a low quality optical drive, for CD's or SACD's for example, can give subpar sound quality, the same MAY happen with SSD's.
That an optical drive or an SSD can read the data, It doesn't mean that is doing It in optimal conditions.

You are dead wrong on your assertion or assumption. Digital data does not know it is playing music. It is simply data and it then goes on through the DAC and then you hear it. Digital data is so accurate and reliable that banks use it everyday without losing money, military uses it because it is superior to anything else etc etc. To use it for consumer use music playback operations is a solved issue for nearly 50 years.

 

[Jimbob54]

I respect your laughing, but as I think a low quality optical drive, for CD's or SACD's for example, can give subpar sound quality, the same MAY happen with SSD's.
That an optical drive or an SSD can read the data, It doesn't mean that is doing It in optimal conditions.

No amount of thinking something is going to make it more or less correct. Figure out a robust test that provides evidence that there is a difference or re-think your strategy for engaging here because the membership will constantly push back against unsubstantiated thoughts and observations and then it gets messy.

I wont allow this thread to become another circular argument. Thanks.

Thanks

 

[ahofer]

Haven’t read through this thread, but the answer is that people profess belief in a lot of stupid stuff. Reasons range from trying to explain something deeply troubling in a more benign way, raise their own status, or as a pro-social demonstration of loyalty. In audiophilia, it is most often the second explanation, but sometimes the third.

 

[Keith_W]

I can tell you that floppy drives certainly sound different.

 

[oleg87]

I respect your laughing, but as I think a low quality optical drive, for CD's or SACD's for example, can give subpar sound quality, the same MAY happen with SSD's.
That an optical drive or an SSD can read the data, It doesn't mean that is doing It in optimal conditions.

If your SSD was so bad at reading data your computer would never boot to the OS or load your player without crashing. Unlike your ears, a rough approximation of the correct instructions or data is not intelligible to a CPU.

 

[boxerfan88]

but as I think a low quality optical drive, for CD's or SACD's for example, can give subpar sound quality, the same MAY happen with SSD's.
That an optical drive or an SSD can read the data, It doesn't mean that is doing It in optimal conditions.

The optical drives works a tiny bit differently from HDD/SSD.

For HDD/SSD, you either get the sector data (no loss / error corrected) or it is unrecoverable (you will definitely know), there is no "best guess" middle ground.

For optical, there is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C2_error

A CD drive can have extraction errors when the data on the disc is not readable due to scratches or smudges. The drive can compensate by supplying a "best guess" of what the missing data was, then supplying the missing data. C2 error correction is an analysis over many interleaved frames, an improvement over C1 error correction, which analyzed just one frame, resulting in more accurate data correction.

This "best guess" data may cause sound quality issues that you refer to for optical drives.

 

[antcollinet]

The optical drives works a tiny bit differently from HDD/SSD.

For HDD/SSD, you either get the sector data (no loss / error corrected) or it is unrecoverable (you will definitely know), there is no "best guess" middle ground.

For optical, there is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C2_error



This "best guess" data may cause sound quality issues that you refer to for optical drives.

This is measurable though, by recording the output of a toslink connection from a CD drive. People have done it with multiple drives, and never detected an error, by comparing with an accurate rip of the CD.

So the reality is that unless you have a worn out or failing laser, or a badly damaged CD, you are almost never going to need to correct errors. It is certainly not going to result in a consistent audible difference between optical drives of different "quality"

 

[Doodski]

This is measurable though, by recording the output of a toslink connection from a CD drive. People have done it with multiple drives, and never detected an error, by comparing with an accurate rip of the CD.

So the reality is that unless you have a worn out or failing laser, or a badly damaged CD, you are almost never going to need to correct errors. It is certainly not going to result in a consistent audible difference between optical drives of different "quality"

That's right. I'll add to that a failing DSP IC and RF amplifier too can cause a hash, sparkle and fuzz to be added the audio output but in this case I was referring to a properly operating disc player and not one on the ropes.

 

[AdamG]

Play nice now. We don’t have to immediately push people into the Indiana Jones Temple of Doom “Pit of Snakes”….

 

[egellings]

When one has no knowledge of electrical engineering concerning audio, then the snake oil beliefs fill in the empty spaces that would be better occupied by real knowledge. Also, it is difficult to learn electrical (or any other) engineering. It is so easy to just decide in one's heart of hearts to simply adopt a belief that feels 'truthy'.

 

[Salt]

I listen only to music via WIFI: it is airy and dispersed

 

[Doodski]

When one has no knowledge of electrical engineering concerning audio, then the snake oil beliefs fill in the empty spaces that would be better occupied by real knowledge. Also, it is difficult to learn electrical (or any other) engineering. It is so easy to just decide in one's heart of hearts to simply adopt a belief that feels 'truthy'.

Nail'd it!
EDIT: I still think I got brain damage from the accelerated pace of my electronics study. I forgot stuff that I knew before like being erased by large quantities of new information.

 

[boxerfan88]

This is measurable though, by recording the output of a toslink connection from a CD drive. People have done it with multiple drives, and never detected an error, by comparing with an accurate rip of the CD.

People of done it with no errors does not mean other people did not encounter errors. Have you even done this yourself? I have. When I was ripping my CDs back then, some CDs will rip with C2 errors. From my own experience, dust or oil smudges or light scratches on the CD can cause C2 errors. My usual recovery mode is to wash the CD data surface with mild soap, and retry ripping. About 90% will then be able to rip accurately.
My post was intended to share with the person I quoted and help draw the contrast between HDD/SSD operation vs. optical drive operation, in that optical drives have this C2 error correction which can create "best guess" or "fake interpolated data" and return partially corrupted data as good data, unlike HDD/SDD.

So the reality is that unless you have a worn out or failing laser, or a badly damaged CD, you are almost never going to need to correct errors. It is certainly not going to result in a consistent audible difference between optical drives of different "quality"

You don't need badly damaged CD to trigger C2 errors, this is half truth and not helpful. As I shared above from my own experience, dust, or oil smudges or light scratches on the CD can cause C2 errors. If C2 errors is handled by reconstructing "best guess" data, this means that the data returned is no longer uncorrupted/lossless. Please show proof that C2 corrected data has no audible difference? Please cite measurements or ABX tests that prove that C2 corrected data has no audible difference. Please share the measurement, ABX test results that supports your assertion that it is not going to result in a consistent audible difference?

 

[Arc78]

People of done it with no errors does not mean other people did not encounter errors. Have you even done this yourself? I have. When I was ripping my CDs back then, some CDs will rip with C2 errors. From my own experience, dust or oil smudges or light scratches on the CD can cause C2 errors. My usual recovery mode is to wash the CD data surface with mild soap, and retry ripping. About 90% will then be able to rip accurately.
My post was intended to share with the person I quoted and help draw the contrast between HDD/SSD operation vs. optical drive operation, in that optical drives have this C2 error correction which can create "best guess" or "fake interpolated data" and return partially corrupted data as good data, unlike HDD/SDD.



You don't need badly damaged CD to trigger C2 errors, this is half truth and not helpful. As I shared above from my own experience, dust, or oil smudges or light scratches on the CD can cause C2 errors. If C2 errors is handled by reconstructing "best guess" data, this means that the data returned is no longer uncorrupted/lossless. Please show proof that C2 corrected data has no audible difference? Please cite measurements or ABX tests that prove that C2 corrected data has no audible difference. Please share the measurement, ABX test results that supports your assertion that it is not going to result in a consistent audible difference?

Well of course you are correct about the CD anyone tried a CD knows that small scratches or stains causes errors in the playback artefacts and sound errors. That is not happening inside a computer if a file is not read correct you receive a read error. This is what happen if you have a failing hard drive. The system crash if you try to execute files from it no matter if it is SSD or a magnetic. Random read and write errors is not a working condition for a computer but a serious condition that cause recurring crashes and failure, a audio CD has a much different system trying to read and accepting errors and trying to play after the misread bit. The idea of selling special things for computer drives that are more hi fi is a scam..

 

[boxerfan88]

Well of course you are correct about the CD anyone tried a CD knows that small scratches or stains causes errors in the playback artefacts and sound errors.

That’s what I said. Agree.

That is not happening inside a computer if a file is not read correct you receive a read error. This is what happen if you have a failing hard drive. The system crash if you try to execute files from it no matter if it is SSD or a magnetic. Random read and write errors is not a working condition for a computer but a serious condition that cause recurring crashes and failure,

That’s what I said. For HDD/SSD we get the sector data or nothing (error), we don’t get “best guess data”. Agree.

a audio CD has a much different system trying to read and accepting errors and trying to play after the misread bit.

That’s what I pointed out with the link to C2 error handling. The “best guess” data is different from original lossless data, therefore can result in different sound.
About the in audible C2 error correction assertion (not from you) I am looking forward to research or measurements or ABX studies that proves C2 “best guess” data recovery is not audible.
In the past when I was playing CDs regularly, I am a firm believer of CD optical drive with good quality laser pickup mechanism, and good quality motor.

The idea of selling special things for computer drives that are more hi fi is a scam..

My post in this thread never refer to HiFi scam branded device whatsoever.