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[SOLD] RME ADI-2 DAC FS, very good condition, 4 years warranty.

VintageFlanker

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Hi folks,


Here we go, I'm about to do something really stupid. I have to think one or two days more, but I'm about to put my ADI-2 DAC FS on sale.:facepalm:Edit: On sale!

Reason: useless "upgrade" to the new Rev2. I know it doesn't make any sense, but my brain will be in peace with the last version available. Right now, I'm hating myself.:mad:

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My unit is one year old (29/10/2018, still under warranty for 4 years).

Edit: I just fully checked the unit. Condition is overall excellent on front, top and rear. Saw some little mark on sides, barely seeable due du the thick black paint. I can barely catch it on picture. Maybe it was here since I got the unit and I never paid attention. I used the few daylight available at this end of november to take more shots. Here are more detailed pictures of the condition:

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It comes of course with the original box, remote, cables and manual.

I'm not sure about the price, but I guess 649€ (plus shipping to EU) seems fair.


Cheers.
 
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solderdude

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I was about to jump on this as I saw RME ADI-2 and FS in one line.
Alas, the FS means For Sale in this case... and besides I was thinking about the ADI-2 Pro FS.
 

Purité Audio

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Hi folks,


Here we go, I'm about to do something really stupid. I have to think one or two days more, but I'm about to put my ADI-2 DAC FS on sale.:facepalm:

Reason: useless upgrade to the new Rev2. I know it doesn't make any sense, but my brain will be in peace with the last version available. Right now, I'm hating myself.:mad:

My unit is one year old (29/10/2018, still under warranty for 4 years), I have to check again the condition once at home, but I guess it is excellent. It comes of course with the original box, remote, cables and manual.

I'm not sure about the price, but I guess 649€ (plus shipping to EU) seems fair.

Pictures and details to come.


Cheers.
Save your money, I think the batch that just arrived are the new one, they look and I expect sound identical to the older ones.
Keith
 
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VintageFlanker

VintageFlanker

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Save your money, I think the batch that just arrived are the new one, they look and I expect sound identical to the older ones.
Keith
The new batch is already available for France from both Thomann and Audiophonics.

Sure. I know this won't be an audible upgrade, but want to keep the best resale potential for the next few years. (Ironically losing 350€ on this one...:facepalm:).
 

Willem

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So you really prefer to take a hit now for no improvement in sound quality or funtionality? Since sound quality cannot be improved upon the only possible reason to upgrade would be more functionality. I might uograde for built in Dirac but that is about it. Anyway, construction quality is such that it should last me the rest of my life (I mostly keep gear for a few decades since technical progress is actually quite slow).
 

JIW

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Why are you concerned with potential resale value? (ironic, I know ... but I am selling mine for a different and much more rational end)

If there is no sonic gain and the device is in excellent condition, the difference must be made up by differences in functionality, the age of the device and presumably also irrationality. Further, if the device is not to the buyer's liking but as advertised, there is likely not the possibility to return it to the seller as is common nowadays when purchasing new units (e.g. Thomann has a 30 day return policy). Secondly, there is also the possibility that the device is not in the condition as advertised.

Apart from being even more accurate and with exception of the Low Dispersion filter and the new remote, the revised DACs function the same as the original DACs. As the increase in accuracy is very likely inaudible, the new filter would have to increase value significantly. Given that the price for the revised DAC is the same as it was for new units of the original DAC, I think that is questionable. Regarding the new remote, as it can be purchased separately, valuing it on its own is easy. However, in this case, it is to be valued against the old remote. I think the new remote at most adds 50€ in value relative to the old one. More likely, it is around 25€, i.e. relative to the price of the unit when new, this is a decrease in value between 0-5% which still leaves 30-35% loss in value to be explained.

Regarding age, given the reliability of RME devices and RME's continued support for many of their old devices, I don't think this is a decisive factor either. Secondly, four years of warranty should keep the expected cost of operation (beyond electricity) around 0 for some time still.

Considering only those two in sum and presuming the device is in excellent condition, I don't think gives reason to a reduction in value of 30-35%. However, some value is likely lost indeed. Given the prices for used and new units I have seen and, I would put that at between 5-10% leaving still a 20-30% loss in value to be explained.

Given the available information about the RME, I think many prospective buyers know enough about the device (certainly on this site) to form reasonable expectations about whether the device will be to their liking. Thus, the lack of the possibility to return the device does not justify the remainder of the 35% loss of value: 20-30%.
There is of course some loss, as the expected loss to the buyer if the device is not to his liking is likely positive compared to buying the unit new from a seller with a return policy. The difference being between shipping cost to seller and loss from sale.
I have not much of an idea how much that would be but I would put at between 2-5% (maybe someone else can chime in) putting the residual loss of value due to other factors at 15-26%.

Since as mentioned above, the buyer cannot fully evaluate the condition of the device prior to purchase, he faces the risk that the real condition is different than advertised. Given the rather slim chance that the device is in better condition than advertised, the prospective buyer's expected value of the devices is (most likely) lower than his valuation of the device in advertised condition. However, the seller can minimise his (corresponding) expected loss by providing the prospective buyer with information that demonstrates (or at least credibly suggests) that the device is in the advertised condition.
If sufficient (i.e. enough and credible) information is provided showing the device being in the advertised condition, the risk faced by the buyer that the device is not in the advertised condition is essentially 0 and thus should have no negative effect on his valuation of the device. Thus, I think the loss in value due to this would be 0%.
However, if the seller does not (including if he cannot) provide information to the prospective buyer sufficient to demonstrate that the device is in the advertised condition, there is some loss to the prospective buyer's expected value relative to the case of sufficient information and hence to the seller's expected income. Thus for a trade to occur the price would have to be lower than the value of the device in the advertised condition.
How much that would be depends on the degree to which the provided information suggests that the device is in the advertised condition but also that is not in a less desirable condition.
Overall, I think maybe 1-5% lower sales price relative to valuation in advertised condition seems reasonable if the information provided is of good quality. Much lower than the residual loss of value after the above factors of 15-26% leaving still a loss of 10-25% to be explained. (If you find this interesting: look up information economics dealing with incompleteness and asymmetry. For a start, take a look at Akerlof's "Lemons model".)

There is still the possibility of scams but I think the probability for it in this market is so low as to be considered irrelevant.

About irrationality there is much to say but also pertaining to the above particularly forming expectations. Anyways, assuming fairly rational expectations and the provision of high quality information (as you claim to intend to do), the sales price of your device should be between 79-90% of its value when new (i.e. 790-900 €) much more than the 65% (i.e. 650€) you consider. In fact, this much lower price, as per the above, suggests that the device is in worse condition than advertised.

Further, applying the same analysis to a new revised DAC and the gain in resale value is at best similar to the expected loss relative to new price for the original DAC, i.e. between 100-210€ after one year. After more years, the relative loss in value compared to the potential sales price one year prior should be similar as many of the effects taken into account for the first year are also present in the second year but most likely nowhere near twice, trice or four times as strong for a two, three or four year unit, respectively. Thus, you would most likely not be able to recover the 35% loss incurred from selling your old unit at 65% of new price from the increase in resale value from purchasing a new unit.
You would gain slightly (and most likely inaudibly) better accuracy, a different filter and a different remote which can be purchased separately at a much lower cost.

So, as per the above, your expected loss is likely between 140-250€ and more likely at the upper end between 190-250€. Is peace of mind (and most likely, only peace of mind) really worth that much to you when you could use the money on something that really makes a difference?
 
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VintageFlanker

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Pictures upgraded.

So you really prefer to take a hit now for no improvement in sound quality or funtionality?
Maybe. Didn't say it was the right choice, because it is not.
Anyway, construction quality is such that it should last me the rest of my life (I mostly keep gear for a few decades since technical progress is actually quite slow).
Glad you're much more reasonable than I am! ;)
 
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VintageFlanker

VintageFlanker

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About irrationality there is much to say but also pertaining to the above particularly forming expectations. Anyways, assuming fairly rational expectations and the provision of high quality information (as you claim to intend to do), the sales price of your device should be between 79-90% of its value when new (i.e. 790-900 €) much more than the 65% (i.e. 650€) you consider. In fact, this much lower price, as per the above, suggests that the device is in worse condition than advertised.
What the...?:rolleyes:

I don't know how things are working in DK, but there is absolutely no way to sell a one year-old thing, whatever the condition, 79-90% of its brand new price in France.o_O Just everybody will pay 100€ more for a brand new unit.

On the last part, tho: Questioning my integrity, once you're new member here, is not a good place to start. First, the unit is not on sale already. Second, sorry if my proposal is more competitive than yours.

Again: my feedbacks, mostly as seller on Tellement Nomade. You can also check my profile post, see what's @Aap op Sokken thinks about me as a seller.
 
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JIW

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On the last part, tho: Questioning my integrity, once you're new member here, is not a good place to start.

You have misunderstood what I wrote.

Please don't take the following the wrong way. I questioned your rationality and not your character but the character of a rational agent who in an effort to sell would price a unit claimed to be in the same excellent condition as yours significantly lower than what a unit in that condition should be valued as by rational agents if there were no incompleteness and asymmetry of information or at least if they were much reduced. Do please take a look at the economic theories I suggested you look into.

Also, the emphasis is yours and may misconstrue what I wrote. Please add that caveat to your post.

I don't know how things are working in DK, but there is absolutely no way to sell a one year-old thing, whatever the condition, 79-90% of its brand new price in France.o_O Just everybody will pay 100€ more for a brand new unit.

As said, much of my analysis relies on rational agents which is a rather optimistic description of human economic behaviour.

However, even if you would subtract some kind of loss of purity effect for the unit no longer being new and that has nothing to do with the other information about the unit and which taking your claim would be 100€ or in this case 10% of new price, you would still be looking at an expected sales price of 69-80% of new price or 690-800€ which would still leave you with an expected loss of 40-150€. Also, as the effect may differ regionally and your claim is particular to France, and as you already mentioned willingness to ship within the EU, your expected loss may not be lessened as much.

Second, sorry if my proposal is more competitive than yours.
Regrettably, this does indeed put into question to what degree our interaction is in good faith. However, the validity of my argument does not depend on it however much its content may be corrupted by it.
 

Buddelpudding

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I questioned your rationality and not your character but
Being a philosopher myself, I do like rambling about rationality and similar topics, but this is all completely out of place. VintageFlaker said himself that he might be doing sth stupid, so he seems to be fully aware of his actions potentialy not being completely rational, which makes 'analyzing' him as a rational agent a bit pointless. Besides, maybe having the newest iteration of a product and peace of mind IS actually a good reason (to him) for selling at this price. But this is not ours to discuss here. Please do not hijack his thread.
 
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VintageFlanker

VintageFlanker

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Regrettably, this does indeed put into question to what degree our interaction is in good faith. However, the validity of my argument does not depend on it however much
its content may be corrupted by it.
Sorry but it doesn't seem like it.

Strangely, my price was not set depending on yours ... But you just came here with some massive post, indirectly trying to discredit me, (on purpose? I hope not). Sad this created competition between us I never wanted that in the first instance. Now, I regret to saying that...but I find your unit too expensive for the condition and age. And I didn't went to your thread to saying this.
Please add that caveat to your post.
Please delete all the irrelevant post above first. Let see what @Thomas savage thinks about our interaction.
Anyway, if you do end up deciding that you want to sell it, hit me up with a message, I'd be interested!
Sure. I will also post pictures of all sides to make @JIW less suspicious.;)
 
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Thomas savage

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Christ now we have long winded posts dissecting a guys desire to sell his DAC.

Give it rest , must we opine about everything.

@VintageFlanker seems to know he's being a bit illogical, a bit of upgradeitus is all we have.

His money, his choice ..

Jesus!
 

JIW

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Being a philosopher myself, I do like rambling about rationality and similar topics, but this is all completely out of place. VintageFlaker said himself that he might be doing sth stupid, so he seems to be fully aware of his actions potentialy not being completely rational, which makes 'analyzing' him as a rational agent a bit pointless.

I don't think you correctly understood what I wrote. Of course, modelling someone irrational as a rational agent is stupid. However, that was not my intention either. It was to approximate the cost I expected he would incur from being irrational. I think this is very much in the spirit of this site even if I were motivated not exclusively by it.

Besides, maybe having the newest iteration of a product and peace of mind IS actually a good reason (to him) for selling at this price. But this is not ours to discuss here. Please do not hijack his thread.

As mentioned above, I did not say that it wasn't to him but only how much it would have to be worth to him to do it.

Anyways, apart from navigating ourselves out of this mess that I did not intend to cause (possibly also replying to VintageFlanker if Thomas allows it), I don't want to say anymore about this in this thread. Maybe we can discuss the rationality of the pricing of used gear in another more neutral thread.
 

Thomas savage

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You have misunderstood what I wrote.

Please don't take the following the wrong way. I questioned your rationality and not your character but the character of a rational agent who in an effort to sell would price a unit claimed to be in the same excellent condition as yours significantly lower than what a unit in that condition should be valued as by rational agents if there were no incompleteness and asymmetry of information or at least if they were much reduced. Do please take a look at the economic theories I suggested you look into.

Also, the emphasis is yours and may misconstrue what I wrote. Please add that caveat to your post.



As said, much of my analysis relies on rational agents which is a rather optimistic description of human economic behaviour.

However, even if you would subtract some kind of loss of purity effect for the unit no longer being new and that has nothing to do with the other information about the unit and which taking your claim would be 100€ or in this case 10% of new price, you would still be looking at an expected sales price of 69-80% of new price or 690-800€ which would still leave you with an expected loss of 40-150€. Also, as the effect may differ regionally and your claim is particular to France, and as you already mentioned willingness to ship within the EU, your expected loss may not be lessened as much.


Regrettably, this does indeed put into question to what degree our interaction is in good faith. However, the validity of my argument does not depend on it however much its content may be corrupted by it.
Why are you creating such a fuss about a guy selling a DAC.

Really was this worth all the time ? It's certainly not worth my time so please seek out more worthy topics.
 
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