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So why are clipping indicators not standard on amplifiers in 2026?

An entirely analog circuit can generate a PWM signal with truly continuous, infinitely variable pulse widths.

No one doubted that. I refuse to discuss PWM basics, I merely pointed out it can be easily used to avoid hard clipping because that's what the topic is about, and that's why some amps probably don't need clipping indicators... and even provided some examples.

... A PWM signal can also be generated digitally, using a clock and counters, resulting in a pulse width with discrete values. Now it’s a digital PWM signal ;)

And I have always seen the control aspect of PWM described as digital. If you start getting into that, nothing in audio is ever digital other than PCM encoding. And Class D is called "digital switching" in many, many places.
 
That, too, is incorrect.
You will find the following statement in many technical textbooks:
The modulation method can be either analog or digital, regardless of the nature of the payload signal.

But these days modulators are quite often digital, for the usual flexibility/cost/etc factors.
 
... I merely pointed out it can be easily used to avoid hard clipping because that's what the topic is about, and that's why some amps probably don't need clipping indicators...
But what you said was "You really don't have to worry about driving any of the good Class D designs into clipping."

I don't think it is necessary to discuss analog vs digital anyway. NAD has had soft clipping on their Class AB stuff forever and I am not familiar with the circuit but I think I have heard it is very simple. So if your point is that soft clipping is easy to include then maybe that is true although I have no idea if it is harder or easier with Class D than with Class AB.
 
NAD implements soft clipping. So does Crown. So do a zillion others. PWM (control) is a digital technology.
Which NAD Class D amps have soft clipping? I didn't find anything about soft clipping searching the NAD M33 V2 manual for "soft" and "clip".
 
Not even NAD?
Not everywhere carried NAD. Technically, that's a British brand, but they were made by an OEM in Taiwan. Which I suppose is technically China. That gets complicated fast.

Same OEM that made Proton IIRC.

NAD were seen as what you bought if you couldn't afford 'real' British kit. The hirecarchy was Naim/Linn for your executive or Doctor/lawyer. Rega for middle-management or public sector professional, NAD for the grunts.

Buying Sony, Technics, Pioneer was an indication you didn't know what you were doing and were getting a mug's eyeful of lights and sound-degrading features. However Marantz CD players were deemed okay for some elusive reason.

If you were really left-field you went for something like Sugden or Audionote.

As per the UK magazines and dealers ofc.
 
Which NAD Class D amps have soft clipping? I didn't find anything about soft clipping searching the NAD M33 V2 manual for "soft" and "clip".
The M22 soft clips it's inputs by changing the level of the rails supplying the opamps contained in said input stage. The class D stage by itself is hard clipping.
I don't know about the M23.
 
But what you said was "You really don't have to worry about driving any of the good Class D designs into clipping."
And I stick by that. They typically implement soft clipping (show me a top design that doesn't do it) because with PWM it is lazy design to not implement it. Doesn't mean one of those 400W modules will not blow you entire speaker if you're stupid, which is why I joked about matching.
But they will not blow your tweeters unexpectedly because your amp goes into clipping at lower levels than your speaker could handle.
Clipping warnings have ALWAYS been pretty useless anyway because of that, they are utterly unaware of your matching choices. Your amp goes "uh I am maxed out" with zero knowledge about impact on speakers.
Get active speakers already if you still don't get it... :-)
 
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Clean, hard clipping and quick recovery are something Purifi happy to show-off as a performance advantage.

1779999267648.png
 
Clean, hard clipping and quick recovery are something Purifi happy to show-off as a performance advantage.

View attachment 535586
Indeed, but that doesn't mean you can't obliterate pretty much any speaker you'd use at home given the potential output power of Purifi modules. The clipping lights IN THE AMP were only remotely useful IF the amp clipped at lower levels than your speaker could handle... tweeter gone. With the power available these days, (a) only a drugged drunk fool would unleash a full 400W into their 200W ranked speakers (b) tweeters may actually survive, since you don't go into clipping... but it depends on matching.

I only once in my life have blown a speaker, and it wasn't even one of the drivers, it was a thermal issue: thunderstorm drove electonics crazy, some random tone started playing at full blast... I wasn't home, and by the time I got back the amp unit in the speaker was done, the heat killed the crossover or something.
 
Not everywhere carried NAD. Technically, that's a British brand, but they were made by an OEM in Taiwan. Which I suppose is technically China. That gets complicated fast.

(From the Robb Collections)​

PROTON Audio, NAD and Dynaco are Cousins. Sort of:​

(Because all were, at one time or another, made by a part of Pan Orient Corporation (now Panor Corporation).

NAD & Proton also had some crossed DNA (and both used a very similar version of:

Dynamic Power on Demand Amplifiers).​

Both the PROTON D540 integrated amplifier which, and the NAD receiver, could be electrically separated into a preamplifier, power amplifier or perhaps both at once.

In the early 1990s, the Dynaco brand was picked up by Pan Orient Corporation (now Panor Corporation), which started selling original design equipment under the Dynaco brand; they offered the PAS-3 series II, PAS-4, CD player, and Stereo 80 tube power amp. Panor still owns the Dynaco brand name, but any direct connection with the company founded by David Hafler has apparently ended for good.


NAD was made in Japan, Korea and Taiwan.
The Japanese ones are usually easily rebuildable.
The Korean ones are more "maybe, maybe not" apparently due to which components went out and leaked what.
The Taiwan ones are usually not rebuildable due to frequent highly corrosive leakage of their electronic components.

And, very early on, some NAD branded speakers were made in England:

When NAD first started in England, Lever Audio Ltd manufactured custom audio for many companies, including NAD.

Practical Hi-Fi Sound

The above link, on page 142, they talk about Speakers from Rola, Celestion being made by Lever. They were a contract manufacturer.
 
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if something has a modulator in there, it is most definitely a digital component... and afaik Ncore and Purifi (and all of them...?) use modulators these days.
FM (Frequency MODULATION) has been around a lot longer than digital:
(From Wikipedia):
Beginning in 1913 Edwin Howard Armstrong prepared a series of comprehensive demonstrations and papers that carefully documented his research, and in late 1913 applied for patent protection covering the regenerative circuit. On October 6, 1914, U.S. patent 1,113,149 was issued for his discovery.
Although most early radio receivers used regeneration, Armstrong approached RCA's David Sarnoff, whom he had known since giving a demonstration of his regeneration receiver in 1913, about the corporation offering superheterodynes as a superior offering to the general public. Superheterodyne sets were initially thought to be prohibitively complicated and expensive as the initial designs required multiple tuning knobs and used nine vacuum tubes. In conjunction with Harry Houck and RCA engineers, Armstrong developed a simpler, less costly design. RCA introduced its superheterodyne Radiola sets in the US market in early 1924, and they were an immediate success, dramatically increasing the corporation's profits. These sets were considered so valuable that RCA would not license the superheterodyne to other US companies until 1930.

RCA introduced its superheterodyne Radiola sets in the US market in early 1924, and they were an immediate success, dramatically increasing the corporation's profits. These sets were considered so valuable that RCA would not license the superheterodyne to other US companies until 1930.

I worked at and on FM radio stations in the 1970's, We definitely had FM modulators then and they were NOT digital.

And, in 1972 modulation and demodulation was in use with LP's and turntables:

CD-4 or Quadradisc​

An RCA Quadradisc record
The third major format for four-channel vinyl LPs, known as CD-4 or Quadradisc, was devised by the Japanese JVC Corporation along with its US counterpart RCA Records.

This quadraphonic format was first marketed in the United States in May 1972. A fully discrete system, it eschewed matrix technologies in favor of a method similar to the encoding of stereo FM broadcasts. With stereo records, the system uses 2 main left and right audio channels, and this is what allows CD-4 to maintain compatibility with conventional stereo playback. CD-4 also adds 2 additional difference audio channels to the main channels. The difference signals are encoded in ultrasonic carrier frequencies in the range of 30 kHz, which is above the audible range. CD-4 requires a specialized phono cartridge with a Shibata stylus to read these additional high frequencies. The combined signals are then sent to a special DEMODULATOR for four-channel decoding. The demodulator converts the ultrasonic signals back into the audible range and uses the difference channels to separate rear audio information from the main channels. Because the CD-4 system maintains four independent signals throughout the process, it can accurately reconstruct the intended four-channel sound field.

And again, in 1976, a different type (for FM broadcasting)

Universal SQ​

In 1976, Ben Bauer integrated matrix and discrete systems into USQ, or Universal SQ (others had also done this with their quad systems).

It was a hierarchical 4–4–4 discrete matrix which used the SQ matrix as the baseband for discrete quadraphonic FM broadcasts using additional difference signals called T and Q. For a USQ FM broadcast, the additional T MODULATION was placed at 38 kHz in quadrature to the standard stereo difference signal, and the Q MODULATION was placed on a carrier at 76 kHz.

For standard two-channel SQ Matrix broadcasts, CBS recommended that an optional pilot-tone be placed at 19 kHz in quadrature to the regular pilot-tone to indicate SQ encoded signals and activate the listener's logic decoder. CBS argued that the SQ system should be selected as the standard for quadraphonic FM because, in FCC listening tests of the various four-channel broadcast proposals, the 4:2:4 SQ system, decoded with a CBS Paramatrix decoder, outperformed 4:3:4 (without logic) as well as all other 4:2:4 (with logic) systems tested, approaching the performance of a discrete master tape within a very slight margin. At the same time, the SQ "fold" to stereo and mono was preferred to the stereo and mono "fold" of 4:4:4, 4:3:4 and all other 4:2:4 encoding systems.

No need for digital at all for MODULATION and DEMODULATION.
 
Not everywhere carried NAD. Technically, that's a British brand, but they were made by an OEM in Taiwan. Which I suppose is technically China. That gets complicated fast.

Same OEM that made Proton IIRC.

NAD were seen as what you bought if you couldn't afford 'real' British kit. The hirecarchy was Naim/Linn for your executive or Doctor/lawyer. Rega for middle-management or public sector professional, NAD for the grunts.

Buying Sony, Technics, Pioneer was an indication you didn't know what you were doing and were getting a mug's eyeful of lights and sound-degrading features. However Marantz CD players were deemed okay for some elusive reason.

If you were really left-field you went for something like Sugden or Audionote.

As per the UK magazines and dealers ofc.
During the multiple times that I have been there, I never got to check out any audio gear.
In the mid 1970's, in Charleston, SC, USA, we had a stereo shop (among a few others) called British/American Sound which carried a good bit of gear made in England.
Linn was one that I remember. It was also the first place that I ever saw a Threshold Amp.
But, I bought my first turntable (a Connoisseur BD-1) from another, more approachable, local stereo store called Read Brother's (whose family was well known as purveyors of fine fabrics for 100 years or more). One of the newer generation of Read's established an excellent and relaxed higher end stereo store that was brand agnostic, as long as it was better quality gear. I also, later on, in the 1980's, bought some of my NAD 2200's from them. By then, British/American Sound was long gone.
 
NAD implements soft clipping. So does Crown. So do a zillion others. PWM (control) is a digital technology.
No, not by definition.
The point is that the domain is not defined by the fact that the signal is only switching between two (or more) discrete levels (which isn't even true as the supply of the output stage is not constant), rather it is defined by how and how long each state of the output signal is held (remember that PWM stand for Pulse Width Modulation). And that time is defined by a fully analog comparator loop in most designs, creating analog continuous time durations, not quantized steps.
 

(From the Robb Collections)​

PROTON Audio, NAD and Dynaco are Cousins. Sort of:​

(Because all were, at one time or another, made by a part of Pan Orient Corporation (now Panor Corporation).

NAD & Proton also had some crossed DNA (and both used a very similar version of:

Dynamic Power on Demand Amplifiers).​

Both the PROTON D540 integrated amplifier which, and the NAD receiver, could be electrically separated into a preamplifier, power amplifier or perhaps both at once.

In the early 1990s, the Dynaco brand was picked up by Pan Orient Corporation (now Panor Corporation), which started selling original design equipment under the Dynaco brand; they offered the PAS-3 series II, PAS-4, CD player, and Stereo 80 tube power amp. Panor still owns the Dynaco brand name, but any direct connection with the company founded by David Hafler has apparently ended for good.


NAD was made in Japan, Korea and Taiwan.
The Japanese ones are usually easily rebuildable.
The Korean ones are more "maybe, maybe not" apparently due to which components went out and leaked what.
The Taiwan ones are usually not rebuildable due to frequent highly corrosive leakage of their electronic components.

And, very early on, some NAD branded speakers were made in England:

When NAD first started in England, Lever Audio Ltd manufactured custom audio for many companies, including NAD.

Practical Hi-Fi Sound

The above link, on page 142, they talk about Speakers from Rola, Celestion being made by Lever. They were a contract manufacturer.
It was actually a bit different.
NAD was always an English company (until its sale to Canada).
Proton was founded back in 1964 and was, from the very beginning, a Taiwanese company that had absolutely nothing to do with NAD.
Proton was originally just an importer but eventually began manufacturing its own equipment as well. From around 1975 onwards, Proton also entered the OEM manufacturing sector, producing equipment for many other manufacturers at the time.
NAD was just one of these clients—though for a period, a significant portion of their equipment was built there.
What is less widely known is that, even back then, Proton was a fairly large enterprise with 850 to 1,000 employees. It maintained its own dedicated R&D department—staffed by approximately 90 people—where designs were developed for both Proton's own product line and for numerous other manufacturers.
Consequently, any similarities—both external and internal—between Proton's products and those of the manufacturers for whom they designed and produced equipment are no mere coincidence.

Proton has always been—and remains to this day—an independent entity; it never had any affiliation with the Pan Orient Corporation, nor was it ever a subsidiary of theirs—just as NAD was not.
Dynaco was merely one of many companies—and a very small one at that—for which Proton designed and manufactured equipment.
Robb was simply misinformed and drew incorrect conclusions based solely on the physical similarities between the devices.


Incidentally, during that era (the 1970s through the 1990s), several manufacturers incorporated separable preamplifier and power amplifier sections—along with additional preamplifier outputs—into their integrated amplifiers.
 
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The M22 soft clips it's inputs by changing the level of the rails supplying the opamps contained in said input stage. The class D stage by itself is hard clipping.
I don't know about the M23.
So this does not sound like some ready-made to implement like @pablolie is suggesting, and something that is in widespread use at all. I really don't know how he is suggesting to do soft clipping with self oscillating Class D. To me it sounds like he is talking about direct manipulation of pulse width by a uP which it seems to me would only be possible in the digital input type which are less common. If I am misunderstanding, will you give some more details on how you see this being done, @pablolie , or point me to a paper or product info or data sheet that explains what you say everyone is doing.
 
It was actually a bit different.
NAD was always an English company (until its sale to Canada).
Yes, the text of Robb collections does not seem very clear.
But what you say is what I know (being an owner of 5 NAD 2200's and 2 NAD 2100's) and having done a lot of research back in the day and all along, until LenBrook and their issues... I also own 2 PROTON D1200's (and they made all kinds of things with the name PROTON on it, TV's, whatever).
NAD was just one of these clients—though for a period, a significant portion of their equipment was built there.
I think that was the main point. I did not see anywhere that said otherwise. Related by having been built in the same facilities. The only thing.
What is less widely known is that, even back then, Proton was a fairly large enterprise with 850 to 1,000 employees. It maintained its own dedicated R&D department—staffed by approximately 90 people—where designs were developed for both Proton's own product line and for numerous other manufacturers.
And there was some technology transfer yet implemented differently
Consequently, any similarities—both external and internal—between Proton's products and those of the manufacturers for whom they designed and produced equipment are no mere coincidence.
With the same production facilities: naturally that would be the case.
Proton has always been—and remains to this day—an independent entity; it never had any affiliation with the Pan Orient Corporation, nor was it ever a subsidiary of theirs—just as NAD was not.
Dynaco was merely one of many companies—and a very small one at that—for which Proton designed and manufactured equipment.
Robb was simply misinformed and drew incorrect conclusions based solely on the physical similarities between the devices.
Well, he (Robb) was certainly doing that, with many photos. But, how many ways can an RCA be? It's an RCA connector. And that's what it is And you mount it where you need it. I think that he might be trying to get readers by dancing around with insinuations.
Incidentally, during that era (the 1970s through the 1990s), several manufacturers incorporated separable preamplifier and power amplifier sections—along with additional preamplifier outputs—into their integrated amplifiers.
Yep, a lot of younger guys are unaware of that.

There is one thing, though. Years ago I saw a picture of Bjørn Erik Edvardsen, purported to be with some PROTON engineers, regarding the Power Envelope circuits and setting them to be different than the NAD ones. Hence DPD, I guess.
But, that may have been a fake. Who knows?

In my mind, they both) NAD & PROTON made/make great gear.
and Panor has the Dynaco name, apparently. Which is pretty much what I already knew.
 
Yep, a lot of younger guys are unaware of that.
It seems that even manufacturers have all forgotten what a significant advantage it can be to have a physical separation between the preamplifier and power amplifier sections within a single unit.
This allows for the insertion of external DSPs, active crossovers, and the like, as well as the easier integration of true 2.1 or 2.2 systems.

Furthermore, an external clipping measurement or indicator could be seamlessly incorporated—which brings us right back to the topic at hand.
 
It seems that even manufacturers have all forgotten what a significant advantage it can be to have a physical separation between the preamplifier and power amplifier sections within a single unit.
This allows for the insertion of external DSPs, active crossovers, and the like, as well as the easier integration of true 2.1 or 2.2 systems.

Furthermore, an external clipping measurement or indicator could be seamlessly incorporated—which brings us right back to the topic at hand.
Also, my separate pre-amplifier has a processor loop so that you can do instant comparisons of whatever it is you've decided to put into the loop.
 
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