Snobbery in Hi-Fi. Why are people so stupid and turn their noses up at gear costing much less which is just as good?

[krabapple]

Your world is not 'the' world. None of ours is. In the bigger picture, by every metric, the rich have more leisure time than the rest of us. They aren't necessarily 'working harder' than say, the landscape guy digging up your lawn, or the folks putting up drywall, unless 'work' is defined as 'taking meetings' or 'investing' or 'networking' or 'managing underlings'. They aren't all 'creators' or 'entrepreneurs'. Far from it. They typically outsource whatever is onerous to them, to an employee or hired worker.

And they aren't necessarily smarter, except in their niche (though they may also just be lucky or connected). And they aren't inherently smarter about audio. They're just as susceptible to stupid hype and price bias as the rest of us.

I have 'mass market' AVRs that have lasted a decade and more and have more of the features I want than many a more expensive supposedly 'better built' rival. So I'm not sure what you are railing about. What cheap audio products, exactly, constitute wasteful consumerism? Why is buying A that's 10x more expensive than B, but produces the same sound, not 'wasteful consumerism' but buying B somehow is?


I don't give a hoot what some dope with money buys. I only care when they make idiot claims about how much better the audio produced by it is. Which they so very, very often do.

 

[TTT15]

I feel like I touched a nerve which was not my intention. I’m just suggesting a little more kindness, tolerance and understanding. That is all. I would agree with a lot of that. My world is certainly not the world. Everyone lives in their bubble to an extent. But it is a world which I’m aware of where people work crazy hours and are just not aware of or interested in HiFi measurements. It is very niche.

So as I said I’ve got absolutely no problem if people buy cheaper products based on measurements. Only I see some brands having lots of different models and new models every year which if we believe all dacs and amps are essentially the same just looks like appealing to wasteful consumerism. And I think some people keep buying lots of cheaper models more often rather than fewer more expensive models which is not a good thing. That was my point.

And not to be overly judgmental about other people’s purchasing decisions. I suspect the average spend on HiFi here is way above anything the vast majority of the worlds population can afford. So I don’t think any of us are in a position to get high and mighty about other peoples subjective consumer purchasing decisions.

 

[Brian Hall]

The ideal situation is to be able to afford really expensive stuff while being aware enough not to bother.

 

[TTT15]

If you have the free disposable cash it just won’t matter to you. Most people just don’t know or care about measurements. They don’t look at specs. They are boring to most people and they don’t understand them. They just buy what they like which is fine by me. There is no evidence that they are better or worse people.

And how should they know. If they look at reviews these days the most popular medium is you tube. Forums are considered old school. And the most popular and best presented you tube channels are subjective.

Personally I want my purchases backed up by measurements science and maths. But that is just me. Personally I would not buy or reject something just based on measurements. I want to listen for myself because I will be paying and listening to it. That is just me. I would certainly not just look at any one souce as you run the risk of confirmation, anchoring, and group think biases which isn’t objective. It’s good to be informed but even better to be open minded about products and people.

 

[pderousse]

I find it amusing that some appear to believe they are behaving rationally, scientifically, objectively by purchasing any kind of audio equipment. It would take some serious special pleading to imagine the entire sector is somehow not a luxury good, but I’m sure most here have enough world perspective to see that. I am very glad there are people who want to study audio scientifically. It benefits a wider society (which includes me), but it’s folly to be either overtly or inversely arrogant about it.

 

[birb]

i used to consider myself an "audiophile" till i learned that most of what i thought i knew was either completely wrong or lacking a great deal of info. the "audiophile" market really ticks me off cause they crank the prices up, list useless specs that actually make things worse, high sample rates for example, or specs that go way beyond the standard 20-20,000hz (crap like 50,000hz or more). list peak power to make it look better than what it really is capable of. never join an "audiophile" chat, the toxicity and stupidity is just horrible. then there's the argument with headphone amps of balanced or unbalanced, ok sure you can gain more power, whatever, but i find in most cases it's just a useless gimick to make the product look better. though when it comes to balanced PA and such, those actually have practical use when dealing with a lot of cables/long cable runs (live events for instance).

 

[Alexander Gödde]

From a recent review in Stereophile:

"On one level, it's unfair to compare the $42,000 hybrid Octave Jubilee to two more expensive solid state preamps, the $150,000 D'Agostino Relentless and $77,975 Soulution 727."

That is what the "experts" are saying, the ones who have access to all the expensive stuff, and lots of it as well. So, really, how can we, the plebs, who only ever use a small selection of devices, to disagree?

 

[Mart68]

From a recent review in Stereophile:

"On one level, it's unfair to compare the $42,000 hybrid Octave Jubilee to two more expensive solid state preamps, the $150,000 D'Agostino Relentless and $77,975 Soulution 727."

That is what the "experts" are saying, the ones who have access to all the expensive stuff, and lots of it as well. So, really, how can we, the plebs, who only ever use a small selection of devices, to disagree?

They're just Veblen Goods at those prices, obviously hobby magazines which are essentially promotional tools for their industry won't bite the hand that feeds them in any serious way, and also it's what most of the readership want to hear.

They want to aspire to that stuff. They like to think there's some more levels of sound quality they will almost certainly never reach.

 

[TTT15]

I‘ve heard the Relentless in a system and subjectively it’s the morst impressive system that I’ve personally heard. If you are that wealthy and you enjoy it why not.

For the majority of the worlds population spending a few thousand or even a few hundred for HiFi based on measurements which you haven’t even listened to is equally inconceivable when you are trying to survive. For the majority of the worlds population the time and money some people on HiFi forums spend on HiFi is obscene so I’m not sure any of us is in a position to cast judgement on how and what other people spend on HiFi.

 

[Purité Audio]

Really quite a challenge to design a preamp that is not audibly transparent, I have no issue with someone buying a ‘relentless’ as long as they are aware that it is no better than any inexpensive but well engineered design.
Keith

 

[Mart68]

I‘ve heard the Relentless in a system and subjectively it’s the morst impressive system that I’ve personally heard. If you are that wealthy and you enjoy it why not.

For the majority of the worlds population spending a few thousand or even a few hundred for HiFi based on measurements which you haven’t even listened to is equally inconceivable when you are trying to survive. For the majority of the worlds population the time and money some people on HiFi forums spend on HiFi is obscene so I’m not sure any of us is in a position to cast judgement on how and what other people spend on HiFi.

I don't have any issue with anyone buying a £150K pre-amp unless they try to tell me it's got better sound than a £350 pre-amp. Then we have an argument

 

[TTT15]

Sure the job of an amp is just to amplify as far as I’m concerned and I’ve know way of knowing how that system would sound with a €350 pre amp.

But then the inference is that everyone should just buy the cheapest well measuring Dac and amps online. No need for dealers to carry different models and no need for dealers full stop. And no need for online brands to produce lots of different models or different models every year. But that isn’t what happens in practice.

I have well measuring equipment but then lots of other well measuring products sound the same or have left me non plussed. I certainly not going to claim what I’ve got is better only that I enjoy it the most from what I’ve heard.

So should people just buy on measurements without listening and should they buy equipment that measures well that they don’t enjoy. I’m not convinced. I’ve no skin in the game but without independent blind listening tests that cater to individual systems and individual people which are limited then we don’t have any definitive independent proof. The majority of info on you tube which is the main medium these days is subjective so the majority of people buying HiFi are left with that and their own listening so that is how they decide without independent blind listening tests which are difficult to do in practice.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

But then the inference is that everyone should just buy the cheapest well measuring Dac and amps online. No need for dealers to carry different models and no need for dealers full stop. And no need for online brands to produce lots of different models or different models every year.

No. There are other factors (looks, functionality, ergonomics, durability, warranty, customer service, showing off, urges to dispense with filthy lucre, etc.). There are plenty of totally cromulent reasons to spend more for the same technical output.

 

[Mart68]

Sure the job of an amp is just to amplify as far as I’m concerned and I’ve know way of knowing how that system would sound with a €350 pre amp.

Exactly the same, there's no reason why it wouldn't.

But then the inference is that everyone should just buy the cheapest well measuring Dac and amps online. No need for dealers to carry different models and no need for dealers full stop. And no need for online brands to produce lots of different models or different models every year. But that isn’t what happens in practice.

People might still want to demo loudspeakers. And the number of dealers has reduced substantially over the last couple of decades. Although possibly that's because people are buying less hi-fi in general. That's probably happening for a number of reasons but I'd suggest one of them is the perception that you need to spend tens of thousands to get high quality sound, a perception the industry itself has created.

So should people just buy on measurements without listening and should they buy equipment that measures well that they don’t enjoy.

With the usual caveats, for electronics, it really doesn't matter. If budget is restricted, true for most, it's always best to spend almost all of it on the loudspeakers. That strategy is the optimum one to avoid disappointment.

 

[TTT15]

No. There are other factors (looks, functionality, ergonomics, durability, warranty, customer service, showing off, urges to dispense with filthy lucre, etc.). There are plenty of totally cromulent reasons to spend more for the same technical output.

Sure but then none of those are covered by measurements.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

Sure but then none of those are covered by measurements.

Yes, that was the point. That this is wrong:

No need for dealers to carry different models and no need for dealers full stop. And no need for online brands to produce lots of different models or different models every year.

It's just wrong for reasons that have nothing to do with sound quality.

 

[TTT15]

Exactly the same, there's no reason why it wouldn't.

People might still want to demo loudspeakers. And the number of dealers has reduced substantially over the last couple of decades. Although possibly that's because people are buying less hi-fi in general. That's probably happening for a number of reasons but I'd suggest one of them is the perception that you need to spend tens of thousands to get high quality sound, a perception the industry itself has created.


With the usual caveats, for electronics, it really doesn't matter. If budget is restricted, true for most, it's always best to spend almost all of it on the loudspeakers. That strategy is the optimum one to avoid disappointment.

Ok but without independent blind listening tests which are difficult in practice we are left going around in circles. The measurement camp are not going to convince any subjective listeners until they produce well presented quality independent you tube content and independent research which proves that the difference people perceive as real and significant are not there. Meanwhile the majority of people are left with you tube and what they hear so that is how they purchase and there is not much point in judging others without proof they are somehow a better person.

 

[Mart68]

Ok but without independent blind listening tests which are difficult in practice we are left going around in circles. The measurement camp are not going to convince any subjective listeners until they produce well presented quality independent you tube content and independent research which proves that the difference people perceive as real and significant are not there. Meanwhile the majority of people are left with you tube and what they hear so that is how they purchase and there is not much point in judging others without proof they are somehow a better person.

Maybe some people judge how 'good' a person is by what hi-fi equipment they buy but I'd suggest that's very few people so really you're complaining about something that rarely happens.

For electronics we can see entirely from measurements if they are up to the task. There's plenty of blind testing been done to demonstrate that already. All the information is there on the internet for anyone to access. All you can do is point people to it, if they reject it, that's up to them. The important thing is that knowledge and info is now available to those who want it. That wasn't always the case.

There may be a few people on a more active crusade to 'convert the unbelievers' but that's not me or most of us here I don't think.

 

[TTT15]

There are plenty of people who clearly do judge people on what HiFi they buy and why though and even get quite superior or even quite hostile which seems uncalled for in respect of a consumer products.

The reality is that if you look for a product review you will invariably get a subjective review on You Tube which is the most popular medium. There is limited blind testing research on speakers and headphones tonality but not seen blind testing research for electronics. If you think measurements are important then the subjectivists are more successful at marketing their views.

 

[Alexander Gödde]

I‘ve heard the Relentless in a system and subjectively it’s the morst impressive system that I’ve personally heard. If you are that wealthy and you enjoy it why not.

For the majority of the worlds population spending a few thousand or even a few hundred for HiFi based on measurements which you haven’t even listened to is equally inconceivable when you are trying to survive. For the majority of the worlds population the time and money some people on HiFi forums spend on HiFi is obscene so I’m not sure any of us is in a position to cast judgement on how and what other people spend on HiFi.

People are free to spend their money on what they want. If you're rich and D'Agostino bling floats your boat, go ahead and buy some.

What I, and others here, object to is HiFi fans being told that devices such as the D'Agostino provide better sound than the gear that the average Joe can afford, that this gets people who want optimal playback to save up for more expensive gear than they would otherwise buy, or just feel bad because they think that they are missing out on far superios audio experiences, which unnecessarily lessens their enjoyment of what they have. Any competently constructed pre-amp is transparent nowadays, so if all you care about is sound then you can get the cheapest one that has the features you absolutely need and be done with that part of your system. This leaves you with more money to spend on those parts of the system that really matter, i.e. speakers, room treatment and room correction.

This is, of course, a first-world problem. I see no reason why this should keep us from discussing it and criticising the charlatans that most audio reviewers out there are. If anything the reviews and discussions here also help those with very little money who can then save towards one of the very good IEM + dongle combinations which can be had for ~30 USD and then enjoy a quality of personal audio reproduction that leaves a majority of megabuck audiophile systems out there in the dust.