Snobbery in Hi-Fi. Why are people so stupid and turn their noses up at gear costing much less which is just as good?

[Ropeburn]

I must admit I sometimes get somewhat snobbish towards people who simply want to burn money, or so it seems. Who get stuff just because expensive means better to them. Who end up with something mediocre and way overpriced, and who can't wrap their head around how much I enjoy my cheap stuff because it can't be good!

Is that really snobbish in the sense of the word? I don't know. Definitely a feeling of superiority and I'm looking down on them like this:

I'm definitely a price/performance snob.

 

[TTT15]

Do you have any blind ABX tests and consumer use tests to back up that a cheaper system is better than a more expensive system taking into account build quality, appearance, customer service and features or is it based on a subjective view? Why are generic brands offering more expensive new products? Whenever I see subjective claims that a more expensive system is better I typically see a request for blind test proof. If we are being balanced and objective doesn’t that requirement go both ways or do we have to rely on subjective bias.

 

[Oddball]

I must admit I sometimes get somewhat snobbish towards people who simply want to burn money, or so it seems. Who get stuff just because expensive means better to them. Who end up with something mediocre and way overpriced, and who can't wrap their head around how much I enjoy my cheap stuff because it can't be good!

Is that really snobbish in the sense of the word? I don't know. Definitely a feeling of superiority and I'm looking down on them like this:

View attachment 480018

I'm definitely a price/performance snob.

Really nice picture your have. And the narrative of looking down on people is very unfriendly. Not sure what you have to do with how they spend their money or how wise is that spend?

 

[JeffS7444]

But isn't it an unspoken goal of any consumer-driven economy to prove the likes of Henry David Thoreau and Nikita Khrushchev wrong: That we can in fact desire ever more and richer food, and that the style of our home appliances matters? And isn't the objective of more and pricier baubles to reward us for working a bit longer and harder than we otherwise would, both for moralistic reasons ("Idle hands are the devil's workshop") and for a sense of achievement?

And then there's this:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smar...d-break-and-lose-their-old-gadgets-180955359/
Because how convenient to break your devices right as a newer model becomes available, because it turns a Want into a "Need".

 

[egellings]

I must admit I sometimes get somewhat snobbish towards people who simply want to burn money, or so it seems. Who get stuff just because expensive means better to them. Who end up with something mediocre and way overpriced, and who can't wrap their head around how much I enjoy my cheap stuff because it can't be good!

Is that really snobbish in the sense of the word? I don't know. Definitely a feeling of superiority and I'm looking down on them like this:

View attachment 480018

I'm definitely a price/performance snob.

The serious, supercilious snob sniffs at such goings on.

 

[krabapple]

Do you have any blind ABX tests and consumer use tests to back up that a cheaper system is better than a more expensive system taking into account build quality, appearance, customer service and features or is it based on a subjective view?

This is a farrago of different things being mashed into an attempt at objection.

1) An ABX test (which is blind by definition) will tell you if two things sound different or not. Which one sounds 'better' , is a different test.
2) Build quality, appearance, customer service are perfectly fine reasons to choose A over B, if those are important to you. But they don't predict that A will sound different than B

 

[TTT15]

Agreed. I’m only saying to be balanced the testing needs to go both ways. Im just not overly keen on casting judgement on how other people decide to spend their money as very subjective for a variety of reasons ans circumstances and I’m certainly not aware of any evidence that people buying cheap or more expensive HiFi or something else makes them a better or worse person.

 

[sergeauckland]

This is a farago of different things being mashed into an attempt at objection.

1) An ABX test (which is blind by definition) will tell you if two things sound different or not. Which one sounds 'better' , is a different test.
2) Build quality, appearance, customer service are perfectly fine reasons to choose A over B, if those are important to you. But they don't predict that A will sound different than B

Agreed. I’m only saying to be balanced the testing needs to go both ways. Im just not overly keen on casting judgement on how other people decide to spend their money as very subjective for a variety of reasons ans circumstances and I’m certainly not aware of any evidence that people buying cheap or more expensive HiFi or something else makes them a better or worse person.

How people spend their money is, of course, up to them, even though I might despise them for their choices...

A blind test, whether ABX or my preferred AA, AB, BA, BB can only tell 'same or different'. Whether one prefers A or B even on a blind test is, as Krabapple says, a different test. We all use our equipment sighted (Pace, our blind members) and even blind people feel the controls, so what a product looks and feels like is important, even to objectivists like me.

I like to buy cheap, not necessarily because I can't afford more, but always because money is a limited resource, and I hate waste. Consequently, I always buy on specification, i.e. does it meet the specification I have for that item. Does it do the job I want it to do, with ergonomics I like. The second of course is purely subjective, but it's my money! Which is why I drive a bought new 14 year old 5 series BMW, but use Behringer amplification.

To me equipment of all sorts are just tools. They have a job to do, and once that's satisfied, one might as well have one that pleases aesthetically.

There's a story about Ferruccio Lamborghini (probably apocryphal) that when a motoring journalist noticed that all the female employees at the Lamborghini plant were very good looking. On commenting to Sig. Lamborghini about this, he allegedly replied "They cost the same as ugly ones".

S.

 

[krabapple]

What do you mean 'it needs to go both ways'? An argument that something cheap sounds the same as something $$$$ can be based quite strongly on
measurements + accumulated knowledge about human perception, without a blind listening test.

We don't have to re-invent the wheel every damn time.

 

[krabapple]

There's a story about Ferruccio Lamborghini (probably apocryphal) that when a motoring journalist noticed that all the female employees at the Lamborghini plant were very good looking. On commenting to Sig. Lamborghini about this, he allegedly replied "They cost the same as ugly ones".

In an apocryphal world those female employees wised up, and realized that they could charge old Sig. Lamborghini more for their work.

 

[TTT15]

I see no evidence in the news on a daily basis that tribalism makes the world a better place. I also see no rational logic for getting tribal about HiFi or any other consumer product. Some buy based on specifications and some for a variety of other reasons. To purchase something for any reason is a subjective choice. Any money spent on HiFi is beyond most people in the world. Im just not convinced anyone should get judgemental about other people’s consumer choices either way. Personally I look at measurements but I also look at science and maths and listen and check all other aspects. Ultimately I purchase what I enjoy the most as that is the metric that is most important for me personally and I suspect that is the preference curve for most people.

 

[Purité Audio]

If those choices are informed neither do I.
Keith

 

[Oddball]

Without offence, isn't it that rich people buy big houses and expensive cars just because they can? Does not mean that

I see no evidence in the news on a daily basis that tribalism makes the world a better place. I also see no rational logic for getting tribal about HiFi or any other consumer product. Some buy based on specifications and some for a variety of other reasons. To purchase something for any reason is a subjective choice. Any money spent on HiFi is beyond most people in the world. Im just not convinced anyone should get judgemental about other people’s consumer choices either way. Personally I look at measurements but I also look at science and maths and listen and check all other aspects. Ultimately I purchase what I enjoy the most as that is the metric that is most important for me personally and I suspect that is the preference curve for most people.

I completely agree that other people should not judge other people how they spend their money. Either for the audio gear or otherwise. I see a great touch or totalitarian approach where someone tells someone else what to do, within the realms of laws or morality. Expressing the emotional attitude about other's spending is similar to that IMO.

If some members spend beyond their means, this is still not a matter to judge. We are not disclosing our net worth or cashflow on this site, so any attempts to guess so are worthless and judgmental. Obviously the wealthier members can spend more than the others.

Advising what the smart spend should be obviously what this site is about. Amir has gone probably the longest way from any sites in securing that. But judging people or looking down on them is not behaviour that at least I would encourage or would tolerate. Amir rates products as recommended or not in few shades. Does not tell people they will be looked upon like idiots if buying them.

I do find this discussion one of the most irritating, irresponsibly judgmental and fruitless on the entire forum. But welcome any suggestions how to end it, including closing up the thread that has gone really rotten.

 

[TTT15]

Ideally people should be informed from differeent good sources but a lot of people buying hifi are Money rich but time poor so don’t want to spend their limited time resources on research. Personally I don’t look at the news and think the popularity of iPods is the the biggest issue facing mankind. And I’m certainly not going to judge people on what HiFi they buy and why. Just don’t think it matters. And if we are being big picture objective we certainly should not be encouraging people to buy cheap disposable HiFi.

 

[Ropeburn]

Do you have any blind ABX tests and consumer use tests to back up that a cheaper system is better than a more expensive system taking into account build quality, appearance, customer service and features or is it based on a subjective view? Why are generic brands offering more expensive new products? Whenever I see subjective claims that a more expensive system is better I typically see a request for blind test proof. If we are being balanced and objective doesn’t that requirement go both ways or do we have to rely on subjective bias.

That's a good point and question that deserves a proper answer. I have independent measurements of my speakers that say they're excellently neutral (which has always been my taste, a convenient coincidence) not only for their price, but also in absolute terms. And there's no big compromise or crossover trickery either: these Heco Aurora 700 aren't super insensitive, on the contrary. Manufacturer says 92dB/W/m, measurements say 90-91. Slightly above average.

Traditional German tuning: "neutral with good bass"

That's an in-room measurement by a generally respected review website (ifidelity.net) with good methodology. These were 600 the pair with a good deal, usual price 700-800, RRP 1000-1200. Certainly counts as "cheap" for a 3-way floorstander. There are plenty speakers for triple and quadruple the price from established makers that don't reach this level.

Properly controlled blind ABX tests of those vs other speakers? None that I'm aware of. Not like that's a common thing either - or at all. I'd like that just as much as the next person on here, but it's just not done generally. All I know of is these measurements and a few more, and numerous subjective reviews, all of which say these are surprisingly, really good. Which I can subjectively confirm. The objective measurements back it up, including those saying the dispersion is VERY wide and with it the subjective stereo image.

You can surely buy worse, sometimes by a lot, for triple the money.

They are driven by the Audiophonics implementation of the NC252MP, and an SMSL DO100, both of which were tested on here and found excellent, which is why I bought them. All in all a 1200 moneys stereo, with which I couldn't be happier. You can easily spend 3000 or 5000 and get a worse sound overall, especially if you're a bit of a fool and waste money on cables and whatnot.

Which is exactly what the people do I mentioned in my post above. Am I somewhat arrogant looking down on them? Sure. But they deserve it, because they refuse to learn better - which I did, not the least thanks to ASR. I may be morally questionable or even wrong on this matter, I freely admit that. But objectively? No. I say, if you spend triple or quadruple the money for an objectively worse outcome, you're doing it wrong and should've done more research. I'll stand by that.

 

[krabapple]

Ideally people should be informed from differeent good sources but a lot of people buying hifi are Money rich but time poor

LOL, the myth of the 'very busy' rich.

Sure, some of them are. And plenty of them have more leisure time than the rest of us, and use it doing more expensive things than most of us. The very rich these days are VERY rich indeed (did you know there's a wealth gap among them?) The hard part for them can be finding new shit to spend money on.

This is one of the silliest threads on ASR in awhile. Yes, TTT, while some people 'do the research', plenty of people really do favor a more expensive thing simply because it's more expensive. To those people, the price is marker of 'quality'. We can prove this easily with the same-wine-in-two-bottles experiment. Price one bottle higher than the other, and watch plenty of people report that it tastes better.

And no wonder, it's the message that 'late capitalism' sells us every day.

 

[Groove01]

Agreed. I’m only saying to be balanced the testing needs to go both ways. Im just not overly keen on casting judgement on how other people decide to spend their money as very subjective for a variety of reasons ans circumstances and I’m certainly not aware of any evidence that people buying cheap or more expensive HiFi or something else makes them a better or worse person.

It seems subjectivism doesn’t discriminate when it comes to one’s beliefs - whether it be audio science or how other people spend their money. Who’da thunk?

Almost as much fun as playing who can more rightous’er. (I figure we maxed the universal cap on $10 words in a single thread so I’d go a little Reddit)

I’m 100% agreeing with you btw (in case my humor is misunderstood - lol)

 

[pderousse]

That's a good point and question that deserves a proper answer. I have independent measurements of my speakers that say they're excellently neutral (which has always been my taste, a convenient coincidence) not only for their price, but also in absolute terms. And there's no big compromise or crossover trickery either: these Heco Aurora 700 aren't super insensitive, on the contrary. Manufacturer says 92dB/W/m, measurements say 90-91. Slightly above average.

View attachment 480100
Traditional German tuning: "neutral with good bass"

That's an in-room measurement by a generally respected review website (ifidelity.net) with good methodology. These were 600 the pair with a good deal, usual price 700-800, RRP 1000-1200. Certainly counts as "cheap" for a 3-way floorstander. There are plenty speakers for triple and quadruple the price from established makers that don't reach this level.

Properly controlled blind ABX tests of those vs other speakers? None that I'm aware of. Not like that's a common thing either - or at all. I'd like that just as much as the next person on here, but it's just not done generally. All I know of is these measurements and a few more, and numerous subjective reviews, all of which say these are surprisingly, really good. Which I can subjectively confirm. The objective measurements back it up, including those saying the dispersion is VERY wide and with it the subjective stereo image.

You can surely buy worse, sometimes by a lot, for triple the money.

They are driven by the Audiophonics implementation of the NC252MP, and an SMSL DO100, both of which were tested on here and found excellent, which is why I bought them. All in all a 1200 moneys stereo, with which I couldn't be happier. You can easily spend 3000 or 5000 and get a worse sound overall, especially if you're a bit of a fool and waste money on cables and whatnot.

Which is exactly what the people do I mentioned in my post above. Am I somewhat arrogant looking down on them? Sure. But they deserve it, because they refuse to learn better - which I did, not the least thanks to ASR. I may be morally questionable or even wrong on this matter, I freely admit that. But objectively? No. I say, if you spend triple or quadruple the money for an objectively worse outcome, you're doing it wrong and should've done more research. I'll stand by that.

Friendly help: The website is https://www.i-fidelity.net/

 

[TTT15]

That's a good point and question that deserves a proper answer. I have independent measurements of my speakers that say they're excellently neutral (which has always been my taste, a convenient coincidence) not only for their price, but also in absolute terms. And there's no big compromise or crossover trickery either: these Heco Aurora 700 aren't super insensitive, on the contrary. Manufacturer says 92dB/W/m, measurements say 90-91. Slightly above average.

View attachment 480100
Traditional German tuning: "neutral with good bass"

That's an in-room measurement by a generally respected review website (ifidelity.net) with good methodology. These were 600 the pair with a good deal, usual price 700-800, RRP 1000-1200. Certainly counts as "cheap" for a 3-way floorstander. There are plenty speakers for triple and quadruple the price from established makers that don't reach this level.

Properly controlled blind ABX tests of those vs other speakers? None that I'm aware of. Not like that's a common thing either - or at all. I'd like that just as much as the next person on here, but it's just not done generally. All I know of is these measurements and a few more, and numerous subjective reviews, all of which say these are surprisingly, really good. Which I can subjectively confirm. The objective measurements back it up, including those saying the dispersion is VERY wide and with it the subjective stereo image.

You can surely buy worse, sometimes by a lot, for triple the money.

They are driven by the Audiophonics implementation of the NC252MP, and an SMSL DO100, both of which were tested on here and found excellent, which is why I bought them. All in all a 1200 moneys stereo, with which I couldn't be happier. You can easily spend 3000 or 5000 and get a worse sound overall, especially if you're a bit of a fool and waste money on cables and whatnot.

Which is exactly what the people do I mentioned in my post above. Am I somewhat arrogant looking down on them? Sure. But they deserve it, because they refuse to learn better - which I did, not the least thanks to ASR. I may be morally questionable or even wrong on this matter, I freely admit that. But objectively? No. I say, if you spend triple or quadruple the money for an objectively worse outcome, you're doing it wrong and should've done more research. I'll stand by that.

Thanks. I think that is a good and fair response answered in the way the question was intended. I’d just question whether they refuse or just don’t know or are not that interested. I suggest that most people don’t buy consumer goods based on specs. It’s just one factor. I agree that may lead to sub-optimal decisions but I’m just not convinced that it makes them a worse person. Don’t get me wrong my purchases consider measurements but like the majority of people including the ASR survey is isn’t the only factor. It is also absolutely fine by me if people just buy based on measurements. I’m not going to judge people either way.

 

[TTT15]

LOL, the myth of the 'very busy' rich.

Sure, some of them are. And plenty of them have more leisure time than the rest of us, and use it doing more expensive things than most of us. The very rich these days are VERY rich indeed (did you know there's a wealth gap among them?) The hard part for them can be finding new shit to spend money on.

This is one of the silliest threads on ASR in awhile. Yes, TTT, while some people 'do the research', plenty of people really do favor a more expensive thing simply because it's more expensive. To those people, the price is marker of 'quality'. We can prove this easily with the same-wine-in-two-bottles experiment. Price one bottle higher than the other, and watch plenty of people report that it tastes better.

And no wonder, it's the message that 'late capitalism' sells us every day.

In my world people are very busy but then you are right they are not super rich otherwise they would not be working that hard apart from my billionaire clients. The first group really doesn’t have time and the second group are just employing interior designers to deal with minutiae like sound systems. Both groups are just not interested in measurements.

I agree some people are just buying on price. It’s the old same washing powder going in different packets. What I often find though is that more expensive products with better build quality and better customer service and the features and appearance that you want actually work out cheaper because used and last longer. Absolutely fine to buy cheap based on measurements but not if you spend more money on more products. Lots of cheap new products is just blatant wasteful consumerism and should be called out as that is a real world issue and certainly not something people should feel superior about.

My colleagues buy iPod max and blue tooth/ AirPlay speakers. No doubt they could get better sound quality for their money and no doubt they are not interested in measurements. However, I don’t see any evidence of horns growing out of their head. They are nice people. They are not hostile or judgemental. Maybe subjectivists make less informed HiFi purchase decisions but I see no evidence that we should make judgements about them. If anything they seem like nicer people. They are happy with their purchases so who cares and who am I or anyone else to judge them.