Snobbery in Hi-Fi. Why are people so stupid and turn their noses up at gear costing much less which is just as good?

[Paul7777x]

I’ve never really understood the ‘cheapest Über Alles’ approach.

Whilst an inexpensive, say £500 dac or preamp may well (and frequently does) sound identical to a £5000 one, I really can’t see any issue in buying the more expensive one for any of several reasons. Or none at all.

If it’s a fine bit of industrial design that has first class shelf appeal as a simple for instance, then why the hell not?

Believing and/or insisting that extra cost does and must equal better performance is of course absurd and has been proven so time and again.

But paying over the odds for any given performance because the buyer wants too. What’s the fuss about. Their cash, their choice and any one else’s opinion is not worth a wank.

The righteous uptight creatures who insist everyone spend to the littlest possible penny commensurate with a given performance level really need to get out more. And unclench. They’ll live longer.

Rant done.

 

[Paul7777x]

… ps it’s not something I’ve ever done. Because I’ve never been able to. Never earned enough to splash.

But if I ever do then I certainly will.

I’d quite like a pair of Kef Blade 2s for instance, when I’m sure a pair of hideous Neumanns or Genelecs will do at least as good a job for a good bit cheaper.

But I’d buy the Kefs every time.

(if I’m ever able too),

 

[Ropeburn]

I'd probably choose Heco La Diva with their nonexistent distortion at high volume

Test Standlautsprecher Heco La Diva – kultivierte Energie - LowBeats

Die Marke Heco hat uns in den letzten Jahren schon mit vielen Lautsprechern begeistert. Die herausra

www.lowbeats.de

Under 1% everywhere. Lol. Capable of ludicrous volume way north of 110dB. 4x passive membranes, 9-10k € / pair

 

[Paul7777x]

I’d never get remotely close to anything like the level these are capable of, not remotely.

But I love the idea of it. It guarantees that anything below that, at normal, even excessive, but not drum busting, levels will be squeaky clean.

I’d have to respray the chrome looking bits though

 

[Sal1950]

Same here most recently the bloke who came round to measure up for a new door. And the cable TV man, who pointed at the speakers on the TV system and said 'Hey I bet these can really kick it out!'

At my pre-retirement digs up in Chicago, I always got comments from just about any new visitor to my home that ventured into my living-room. When they saw the huge Klipsch LaScala's plus 2 7' tall HSU subwoofers at one end, along with the 5.2 multich HT system set up at the opposite end I'd get various comments, mostly of wonderment. LOL

But paying over the odds for performance because the buyer wants too. What’s the fuss about. Their cash, their choice and any one else’s opinion is not worth a wank.

The righteous uptight creatures who insist everyone spend to the littlest possible penny commensurate with a given performance level really need to get out more. And unclench. They’ll live longer.

Thing is, we here know and understand the Hi-Fi world but so many others are caught up in the Stereophile/TAS mind-set that more expensive always equals better sound. It's hard to break thru into that mentality. I can think of many good reasons to purchase some products considered Hi-End, it's just that in many/most cases, better sound isn't one of them.
We do have many members here who enjoy getting the best sound for as little money possible. But OTOH we have a lot of fairly wealthy members with very expensive systems that are proud of them, while at the same time not putting out the "snobbery" attitudes we so frequently read at other places.
The involvement of our reader base in the objective side of audio IMHO has built a generally better rounded type of Hi-Fi Enthusiast.
Humm, does saying that about our clan then reflect Snobbery? LOL

 

[Audionaut]

If I told you that this power amplifier costs $20,000, everyone would probably believe me—if I weren’t writing it right here.

In reality, it’s an affordable PA power amplifier, but it would certainly turn heads among audiophiles if you were to give it a nice-looking front panel.

Pronomic TL-1200 Endstufe 2x 2400 Watt

✔Ausgangsleistung (8 Ohm): 2x 1200 Watt ✔Ausgangsleistung (4 Ohm): 2x 1900 Watt ✔Ausgangsleistung (2 Ohm): 2x 2400 Watt ✔Ausgangsleistung (8 Ohm gebrückt): 3000 Watt ✔Ausgangsleistung (4 Ohm gebrückt): 4000 Watt

www.kirstein.de

 

[Mart68]

But paying over the odds for any given performance because the buyer wants too. What’s the fuss about. Their cash, their choice and any one else’s opinion is not worth a wank.

I don't think anyone cares too much about that, but most people who buy the expensive stuff think that the price is a spec. That's what it's all about. I'll also pay more for a extra quality appearance and build but I'm not making any claims about the sound being better.

 

[Paul7777x]

View attachment 535542

If I told you that this power amplifier costs $20,000, everyone would probably believe me—if I weren’t writing it right here.

In reality, it’s an affordable PA power amplifier, but it would certainly turn heads among audiophiles if you were to give it a nice-looking front panel.

Pronomic TL-1200 Endstufe 2x 2400 Watt

✔Ausgangsleistung (8 Ohm): 2x 1200 Watt ✔Ausgangsleistung (4 Ohm): 2x 1900 Watt ✔Ausgangsleistung (2 Ohm): 2x 2400 Watt ✔Ausgangsleistung (8 Ohm gebrückt): 3000 Watt ✔Ausgangsleistung (4 Ohm gebrückt): 4000 Watt

www.kirstein.de

Frankly that is impossible looking for the price.

I mean, seriously, it looks like the cost of the components alone would be much more than the amp

I’d love to see some measurements of one of these.

What a beast.

 

[Audionaut]

I’d love to see some measurements of one of these.

I don't think they'll score particularly well on the SINAD test.
But they're very powerful amplifiers if you need a lot of power in, say, a small club, where low-volume noise isn't an issue anyway.
I've heard them a few times driving large 18-inch subwoofers and thought they sounded great.

 

[Ropeburn]

View attachment 535542

If I told you that this power amplifier costs $20,000, everyone would probably believe me—if I weren’t writing it right here.

In reality, it’s an affordable PA power amplifier, but it would certainly turn heads among audiophiles if you were to give it a nice-looking front panel.

Pronomic TL-1200 Endstufe 2x 2400 Watt

✔Ausgangsleistung (8 Ohm): 2x 1200 Watt ✔Ausgangsleistung (4 Ohm): 2x 1900 Watt ✔Ausgangsleistung (2 Ohm): 2x 2400 Watt ✔Ausgangsleistung (8 Ohm gebrückt): 3000 Watt ✔Ausgangsleistung (4 Ohm gebrückt): 4000 Watt

www.kirstein.de

If those figures are remotely true, then that's more than good enough for great hifi enjoyment... and not any worse than lots of "high end" priced amps. Plus wheelbarrows of power.

 

[MattHooper]

This conversation is absurd. There is nothing rational about audiophilia.

You are rationalizing to imagine it is anything other than feeding your passions.

I’ve occasionally seen this sentiment expressed and it truly puzzles me.

What is irrational about pursuing a passion in general, and if that passion happens to be audio equipment and the pleasure that gives us?

Identifying what you value and taking actions to get what you want would seem to be almost a very definition of rational.

What version of “ rational” would you have in mind?

One in which human value and personal pleasure play no role?

One of the greatest things in life is to have passion - and anyone is very lucky if they are living a life in which they have at least one passion or more. To think that pursuing that passion is irrational is one of the strangest ideas I have come across.

 

[Audionaut]

One of the greatest things in life is to have passion - and anyone is very lucky if they are living a life in which they have at least one passion or more. To think that pursuing that passion is irrational is one of the strangest ideas I have come across.

We don't always see eye to eye, but I really appreciate that you stand by your views and opinion, Matt

 

[Ropeburn]

Humans have a physiological and psychological need for good feelings. Without them, we get sick and miserable. That can even be measured directly, via hormone levels.

Music is one of the most fundamental human things working towards that. So is making and using tools.

Combining all of the above, it would be highly irrational not to enjoy music, and to think the technology used for it can't bring enjoyment too.

 

[MattHooper]

How can anyone justify 16 grand on a CDP that’s no better than many costing under a grand, it’s complete lunacy, that’s why I’d like to see it tested.

While I can certainly understand how little appeal that CDP holds for you and others here (and it holds no appeal for most of the same reasons for me)… it can be a bit of a slippery slope to go with the “ it’s lunacy to overspend on equipment that does not perform better than cheaper equipment” principal.

For instance, I can defend my own choice of tube amplification. My tube amplification cost significantly more than much cheaper better performing solid state gear. Hell…the Topping mini 300 that I’m considering as an additional amplifier is 22 times cheaper than my tube amplifiers and offers better technical performance!

But there are all sorts of things I value in the tube amps that you likely do not - the particular aesthetics, haptics, conceptual - I like the audio history represented by that type of amplifier. How it represents my own audiophile history. The specific sound, etc. I simply could not get all of this from any Topping or similar solid state amplifier.

When it comes to digital gear… I own a Benchmark DAC. I could no doubt get similarly transparent reproduction of digital signals from significantly cheaper DACs. But I do appreciate how benchmark gear comes from a company that has truly admirable, cutting edge engineering chops. Adds to my own personal bit of pride of ownership I guess. Not to mention it should be very reliable and has been reliable.

 

[DMill]

Fly fishing gear is a nice comparison to audio equipment. It is a sport mainly funded by middle aged men, who likely have a few bucks to spend on trips, guides and overpriced gear with ridiculous claims. I have multiple $1000 fly rods, 3 reels that are $400 or more, $500 waders, $275 boots, $300 pair of sunglasses, and many thousands of dollars of vests, boxes, flies, line, etc. of gear to enjoy a hobby I might now get out 20 times a year to enjoy due to work and kids. I can assure you the fish don’t care about my Abel reels or T&T fly rods. And I will be out fished by guys who spend a fraction at Walmart to gear up because they are putting in more time on the river. But I love every single perfectly machined reel I own, even if it’s technically inferior to an $89 Amazon purchase.

Am I crazy to no longer care about cost v performance if it brings me joy? I guess the ultimate question, is who am I to judge value? I have a good friend with B&W 801s. They sound pretty good.

 

[Newman]

I’ve never really understood the ‘cheapest Über Alles’ approach.

Whilst an inexpensive, say £500 dac or preamp may well (and frequently does) sound identical to a £5000 one, I really can’t see any issue in buying the more expensive one for any of several reasons. Or none at all.

If it’s a fine bit of industrial design that has first class shelf appeal as a simple for instance, then why the hell not?

Believing and/or insisting that extra cost does and must equal better performance is of course absurd and has been proven so time and again.

But paying over the odds for any given performance because the buyer wants too. What’s the fuss about. Their cash, their choice and any one else’s opinion is not worth a wank.

The righteous uptight creatures who insist everyone spend to the littlest possible penny commensurate with a given performance level really need to get out more. And unclench. They’ll live longer.

Rant done.

Totally agree. Although it could be a straw man, if you think people in this thread have been taking issue with buying upmarket for the reasons you just gave.

Snobbery, though, is an actual thing, and is not one of the reasons you just gave. And it's the actual thread topic. What's your view on that reason?

cheers

 

[Sal1950]

If I told you that this power amplifier costs $20,000, everyone would probably believe me—if I weren’t writing it right here.

In reality, it’s an affordable PA power amplifier, but it would certainly turn heads among audiophiles if you were to give it a nice-looking front panel.

That certainly looks to be a muscular Class A/B amp that claims a ton of power output.
OTOH the internal cooling tunnels and large fans would be of concern for many home users.
Somewhat noisy when asked to deliver power I would assume.
Probably not a issue for PA use.

 

[Sal1950]

I occasionally visit a audiophile site where one frequently encounters someone who says (e.g.) words to the effect, "You can't expect a $300 DAC to sound as good as a $6000 DAC". If you challenge that, you are likely to be told,

Nope, these are the 2 most often heard replys.
Your system isn't resolving enough to hear the difference.
Your ears haven't been trained to appreciate the differences.
Your gear or your ear, that's the problem. LOL

 

[pderousse]

I’ve occasionally seen this sentiment expressed and it truly puzzles me.

What is irrational about pursuing a passion in general, and if that passion happens to be audio equipment and the pleasure that gives us?

Identifying what you value and taking actions to get what you want would seem to be almost a very definition of rational.

What version of “ rational” would you have in mind?

One in which human value and personal pleasure play no role?

One of the greatest things in life is to have passion - and anyone is very lucky if they are living a life in which they have at least one passion or more. To think that pursuing that passion is irrational is one of the strangest ideas I have come across.

You and I agree. I guess you are quoting me as representative of 'some people', but I do not agree with the interpretation you attribute to those words, so here I am. Irrational, passionate and un-scientific in no way equate with 'bad'. That seems to be what you are stating those words mean. No.

I own and enjoy some of the very snob gear the OP dislikes, and it sounds awesome in my home. However, it seems to me that the OP was looking for is something that was all together different. He seems to have wanted assurance from this community that economical purchases of audio equipment, 'that are just as good' as the expensive stuff, are rational, scientific, and - here is the important part- therefore they are somehow justified. I see this assumption here often. The +50% of the world's population living on less than $7/day would find that line of reasoning absurd, unless your DAC also kills mosquitoes.

My words were meant also to be a reminder that musical enjoyment is not rational. Maybe that's a good thing. It is also good to remember that a many things thought to be rational and scientific by civilizations of the past are in no way justifyable in this one.

 

[Petrushka]

Auditoriums and listening venues do not have flat response, nor are they noise free.

Transparent equipment is desirable, but at a certain point, sane people will learn to listen to the music.

Low bass is more expensive than good midrange and highs, and it’s thrilling, but everyone has a budget point at which its time to listen to music.