Snobbery in Hi-Fi. Why are people so stupid and turn their noses up at gear costing much less which is just as good?

[Axo1989]

Let's assume for a minute that there is some real difference in sound quality between the Chord Dave DAC and the Topping DAC and further that there has yet to be a widely used measurement that can capture and show the objective difference... to verify that this difference is real have you verified that this difference is not simply your impression based on sighted bias?

I for one was open to the the idea that the prevailing understanding of DACs and digital audio here at ASR might be wrong. I thought I could hear differences that were not being measured. To find out for myself, I went to the trouble of setting up my own double blind test. It was pretty eye opening to discover the differences I thought I heard vanished during the double blind comparison.

I should really quote Huub, rather than your reply but I've hidden them now. I (somewhat perversly) enjoy the industrial design of DAVE actually. If I lacked budgetary constraints entirely I'd certainly get one with the matching BLU CD transport for my audio design objects collection (that I've yet to start, but I'm still young-ish). Otoh pairing it with M Scaler certainly not. That matches Hugo TT, not DAVE (and BLU already has M Scaler built-in, so let's be serious).

*there was even a matching amp, and a separate phono stage, but only DAVE remains on offer

The TT stack by contrast: two different aesthetic presentations, so I'm thinking one for the work desk, the other for the bedside table. Time to hit Etsy. Have I sufficiently qualified for snobbery yet?

 

[Mr. Widget]

Yes I’m sure. Why would I spend so much money? Throw away your Topping and spend some more for a decent Chord.

Seriously after I compared them myself, I sold my $25K DAC and replaced it with a less expensive unit that had the features I wanted... It was still a European built unit that was not inexpensive, but it offered features that Topping and the $25K DAC did not.

 

[Sal1950]

It’s Chord, not Cord

Oh! a 1937 Cord 812 Phaeton, now there's something that would really sound different.
I want one for real Snobbery!

Hey all you car guys, what jumps out at you as WRONG with this car ?

 

[Sal1950]

Yeah this is how you think. An ASR forum member, not so long ago, heard a Chord Dave with and without M Scaler at his friends place. Ofcourse he heard differences. Because he thinks like you he suspected the Chord Company for including a tone control in the M Scaler. You can imagine what I think… the effect of the M Scaler can impossibly be caused by a tone control.

??? Well it is possible, have you measured the DAC both with and without this M Scaler?
I never heard of the M Scaler till you mentioned it here. With everything that's going on with this thing I imagine it's very possible it changed the sound of the Dave's analog output. But what musical information due you think it may have found in the 16/44 that you can't hear at 16/44?
All these changes would also be easily measurable, there's no "magic" in a data file.
Then you have to axe yourself, does it sound better or worse than the Redbook 16/44.1 file.
It might sound subjectively better to you if it's modifying the analog output.
But which analog file was the one the engineering team approved?
There are all sort of toys in a Digital Work Station you could play with too.
Have at it.


"The Hugo M Scaler is a highly advanced standalone upscaler capable of redefining sound quality from digital audio. It uses Rob Watts’ (our Digital Design Consultant’s) unique filter technology, the most advanced in the world, to upscale standard 44.1kHz digital audio up to 705.6kHz (16x CD’s 44.1kHz native resolution), ready to be passed to a suitable DAC; Hugo M Scaler extends its upscaling performance to 768kHz (from 96kHz input data) for our dual-BNC-input DACs: Qutest, Hugo 2, Hugo TT 2 and DAVE."

 

[Mr. Widget]

Hey all you car guys, what jumps out at you as WRONG with this car ?

Not sure what's wrong, here is one that belonged to Amelia Earhart and it looks just as cool to me.

 

[JiiPee]

My pre-emptive response: Nothing wrong with FWD in road cars, as long as it's done right.

 

[Axo1989]

My pre-emptive response: Nothing wrong with FWD in road cars, as long as it's done right.

Not only front wheel drive (which works for me) but looks like the doors open the right way.

 

[antcollinet]

Hello my dear sceptics. I’m the proud owner of a Chord Dave. Objectively less than a 300 dollar Topping. Well I owned a lot of these Toppings, from D10 and ending with the D90 Discrete, and I always felt that I was missing the music, not the tones. The moment I heard a Chord Dave I knew that I wanted to own one. The difference in sound quality with all these Toppings is shocking. Especially when you know that so many people use a Topping for their expensive speakers. But that is their problem. The moment my strange looking Chord Dave powered my Neumann KH420’s (yes, bought because Amir said so) I was in heaven. But the story did not end here for me.

The utterly useless jitter-generating Chord M Scaler was, of course the next step. And last week was my week, I found a second hand unit for half the price. Still enough to feed a family for six months but hey! Hifi.

To be honest I really didn't know what to expect. I just had to try it. Despite the horrible review here at ASR. Well, the bloody thing works. Perfectly. I know you hate audiophile-like descriptions but I hear better defined details, naturality, tighter bass and all this without losing the musicality that Chord has en Topping has not.

I wish you much success with your blind tests and evidence-based music experiences. I know that you are all nice guys, like me.

Yes we've heard it all before.

And you've been here long enough to know that your perceptions of what you are hearing (which, note, I do not deny) are not coming from the sound reaching your ears, but are created in the wetware between them. Based probably on your emotional connection to the gear. the problem is - as your emotional connection (or whatever it is driving the bias) fades (as you get used to owing the "amazing" Chord devices) then so will the perceptions of "Shocking differences" fade also.

 

[HuubFranssen]

Off you go then. Back to your world.

No! I learn a lot here. I have my beloved Neumann KH420 because of a test here. But sometimes I do not agree with the rigid way of thinking on this forum. This is my world too.

 

[HuubFranssen]

Yes we've heard it all before.

And you've been here long enough to know that your perceptions of what you are hearing (which, note, I do not deny) are not coming from the sound reaching your ears, but are created in the wetware between them. Based probably on your emotional connection to the gear. the problem is - as your emotional connection (or whatever it is driving the bias) fades (as you get used to owing the "amazing" Chord devices) then so will the perceptions of "Shocking differences" fade also.

You’ve heard it all before. Yeah that keeps on going forever.

But have you ever tried yourself? Wetware is an important factor. But when wet impressions do not fade away, are reproducible and others somewhere in the world think the same? Things are not so easy as you write.

 

[ahofer]

No! I learn a lot here. I have my beloved Neumann KH420 because of a test here. But sometimes I do not agree with the rigid way of thinking on this forum. This is my world too.

Then you know perfectly well that assertions from sighted and uncontrolled listening are considered trolling here, and you are doing it deliberately.

Off to ignore.

 

[Mart68]

But when wet impressions do not fade away, are reproducible and others somewhere in the world think the same?

If these things were at all reliable evidence there'd be no need for blind testing in audio or any other field. No academic shares your confidence in the reliablity of such impressions. It's easy to be mistaken repeatedly.

I did have a fairly long listen to a system with DAVE and Mscaler a couple of years back. At best it was 'meh' but on account of the speakers not being very good. The expensive digital components could not overcome that simple failure.

Your choice of speaker is outstanding though so I'm sure you get great sound.

 

[HuubFranssen]

Then you know perfectly well that assertions from sighted and uncontrolled listening are considered trolling here, and you are doing it deliberately.

Off to ignore.

Oh good then you don’t read the following line.

No I’m only flabbergasted how some people think on this forum. And how some people react, like you.

 

[HuubFranssen]

If these things were at all reliable evidence there'd be no need for blind testing in audio or any other field. No academic shares your confidence in the reliablity of such impressions. It's easy to be mistaken repeatedly.

I did have a fairly long listen to a system with DAVE and Mscaler a couple of years back. At best it was 'meh' but on account of the speakers not being very good. The expensive digital components could not overcome that simple failure.

Your choice of speaker is outstanding though so I'm sure you get great sound.

This is the kind of reaction that I like: different experience but with respect. Thank you.

Yes my choice of speaker is outstanding, thanks to Amir. The nice part is that you can hear everything you use as source. Also when they sound different. I really have tried to feel fine with Topping dacs but they suck all musicality out of the music. In my ears of course.

 

[Audionaut]

No I’m only flabbergasted how some people think on this forum. And how some people react, like you.

Hi Huub,

Yes, I’m sometimes surprised by how harsh the tone can get. Actually, that’s also a pretty unfiltered form of audiophile snobbery.

Nothing in the audio field is so important that we should forget to treat each other with respect, regardless of any differences of opinion.

Tot ziens en hartelijke groeten aan Nederland

 

[PristineSound]

My hearing is well within the normal range for my age of 47. I am somewhat trained through the Harman "how to listen" app on Windows.

I will be perfectly 100% honest here: I sincerely doubt that I can pass an ABX DBT with any audio equipment that are load invariant, flat FR with THD+N of .00x%, and likely not even at .0x% THD+N.

However, there are no more ABX devices on the market anymore, so it's hard to prove or disprove.

Sor for HuubFranssen to make such claims, of course there are pushbacks.

 

[HuubFranssen]

My hearing is well within the normal range for my age of 47. I am somewhat trained through the Harman "how to listen" app on Windows.

I will be perfectly 100% honest here: I sincerely doubt that I can pass an ABX DBT with any audio equipment that are load invariant, flat FR with THD+N of .00x%, and likely not even at .0x% THD+N.

However, there are no more ABX devices on the market anymore, so it's hard to prove or disprove.

Sor for HuubFranssen to make such claims, of course there are pushbacks.

No problem with pushbacks, my proud announcement that everybody is wrong is a pushback too.

I have a problem with shoutbacks.

 

[Ropeburn]

"Everyone is wrong and only I am right, which makes me proud"

And you dare complain about tone and attitude?

 

[Frank Dernie]

I'd certainly get one with the matching BLU CD transport for my audio design objects collection

I bought a used Chord Blu, the original version because I loved the styling. It is a backup for when my 30 year old Goldmund Mimesis 36+ packs in. Don't expect a difference in sound but it is a lovely bit of styling IMO.

 

[Mart68]

This is the kind of reaction that I like: different experience but with respect. Thank you.

Yes my choice of speaker is outstanding, thanks to Amir. The nice part is that you can hear everything you use as source. Also when they sound different. I really have tried to feel fine with Topping dacs but they suck all musicality out of the music. In my ears of course.

It's hard to separate what is reality sometimes. Seeing as we can't listen blind when using the system for enjoyment rather than comparing equipment it's something we just have to learn to live with. We don't get to choose whether we like something or not even if it's irrational.

I used one of the cheapest Toppings for a couple of years, the original E30. Friends who very much have an 'everything matters' and 'everything has a sound' approach similar to yourself were bemused that I would be using such a cheap DAC with a comparatively expensive (£20K) system.

Eventually given the low price a few of them bought one just out of curiosity. They were all surprised at 'How good it is'. Now these are people accustomed to using DACs that cost thousands and have been modified with 'better' caps and power supplies. Have to confess I was surprised by this since you'd think expectation bias alone would cause them to think the Topping was bad sounding cheap junk.

No real conclusion I can draw from that, I just found it interesting.