The only way you are going to get around the issue is improving objectivist YouTube content presentation, blind testing as most people don’t relate to measurements and more friendly and welcoming forums. If you are not open to the way the rest of the world works then you are not going to persuade the outside world to join you.
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Snobbery in Hi-Fi. Why are people so stupid and turn their noses up at gear costing much less which is just as good?
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Westsounds
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Vintage can sometimes mean cut-offs in frequency and worn components, which may lead to a smoother sound because it's just less shoved in your face. DACs are a good one as well, pretty much most modern DACs outperform older ones which were classed as flagships, not that long ago. Simply because the technology has developed and moved on. And stick a high performance computer and DSP in front of that again and pretty much all old DACs are not worth their flagship used values, regardless of how ‘tonally nice’ it may sound. Newer ones have just surpassed them generally, even some simple well-designed budget ones.Yet they still get hoodwinked by brands, kudos and status associated with equipment...and vintage.
Vintage amps/receivers are said to have a "softer, more musical sound" and so on. Vintage because it's nice to look at, I understand, but not because of its performance, which in many cases is of course worse than newer stuff. With that said, there are, for example, good transparent vintage amps, but still.
They can be expensive as hell, though.BUT , they can retain or even increase in value. If they are maintained, serviced and so on.
(I know I'm asking and answering my own questions, I apologize for that)
Then we have tube amps. Often extremely expensive watts. Nice with tube glow, though.
Not to mention how reviewers are praising tube amps to the skies. Tube amp snobbery.
I haven't seen them but I dare bet a month's salary that they will sing the praises of the soft, nice midrange sound, the incredible soundstage they create. The usual generic thing you hear in such tube amp reviews. Maybe they are crappy tube amps that create a wanky FR together with audible distortion which is the cause. Or they are fooling themselves and imagine hearing this nice sound.
They can also make money singing praises, but I'll leave that aspect aside.
By the way, wanky FR and audible distortion can be fixed with free EQ and free distortion plug ins.
Tube amps as a hobby, as DIY, and or to keep vintage (tube) hi-fi technology alive, however. I understand that and it makes sense like any other hobby.
Like:
Or have had, listened to a Williamson tube amplifier? Impression?
Are they available?
What can one, in reasonable condition, cost?
I could really imagine having one. Mostly for its HiFi history.Not as a main amp but in some nice secondary system. Then together with a subwoofer + LP/HP filter sub-speaker. Speakers that the Williamson tube amplifier would like to drive.
I might add that when I say have such an old amplifier as a general tip, you should be knowledgeable about electronics or, as in my case, have a friend who is knowledgeable (I help him with other things). Taking...
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Westsounds
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Blind testing should be the standard for subjectivists and people choosing hi-fi in general perhaps, but it’s difficult to fairly do it, and shops wouldn’t really be in favour of it because they lose a lot of the bias sales. And people would pick with their ears, not their eyes and background knowledge, and nobody can agree on that either, we all look for different things in audio. Unfortunately not enough of it is done, it’s certainly a great leveller done right.
Not a new debate.
Some people appreciate the precision craftsmanship of a Patek over an Apple Watch. They both tell time, the Patek can be handed down to your grandkids.
There is certainly a point of diminishing returns in audio. Your point of demarcation may be different then others based on your circumstances, means, and use case.
Ryobi works. Makita just works better for harder jobs over and over again. Is Festool better than Makita, yes. Is it worth 3x the price for me, no.
Is Makita worth 2x the price over Ryobi - for me 100%.
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Westsounds
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That’s kind of a sad point with the heirloom bit. It’s only valuable to them perhaps if they want it or of the resale value is desirable and easily exchanged. Some speakers the size of washing machines are usually a hassle for the family to move on or in a worse case scenario awkward to get to the tip
And I’d put money on this has happened many times, any tip workers here? Because speakers a popular feature there when I’ve been, and to the unknowing eye a pair of LS3/5A would look like tatty old speakers, even if their collector value may be 10G’s. A lot of the time though you’re treasured stuff is just something for someone else to get rid of if you are no longer around.And on this, no one will ever know whether that stunning bit of building work was ever done using only Parkside tools
Completely agree as someone with very limited knowledge putting together a new system and happy to pay for marginal gains but not wishing to pay for anything that doesn’t add value. The best I’ve got is a couple of days at a trade fair where I had very limited prior knowledge so blind in sense wasn’t loaded with bias from prior knowledge. But sighted and not possible to make direct comparisons. There is a lot of stuff which sounds very similar to me regardless of price. I’ve been able to do some limited in store direct comparisons but again sighted. So very difficult for a consumer to do blind tests. There is also very limited blind testing reviews. So I’ve listened, looked at reviews and measurements but ultimately the majority of consumers are making subjective decisions because they don’t have blind tests to go off even if they are interested.
Which is why I've written a 'Domesday' letter to my kids, telling them what all my stuff is, some rough idea of monetary or historic value, and how best to dispose of it. I can't imagine anything worse for my ghost to know that my EMT turntable was taken to the tip!That’s kind of a sad point with the heirloom bit. It’s only valuable to them perhaps if they want it or of the resale value is desirable and easily exchanged. Some speakers the size of washing machines are usually a hassle for the family to move on or in a worse case scenario awkward to get to the tip
And on this, no one will ever know whether that stunning bit of building work was ever done using only Parkside tools
S.
The point wasn’t the heirloom aspect, it was the handcrafted precision, excellent execution and quality that will last several lifetimes.
I get it, you don’t appreciate that and you think that’s “winning”. Cool!
You’ve obviously never drilled through filled block and had the chuck just completely sheer off. I personally don’t like taking 2x the time and cleaning up rough cuts because my tool bogs down.And on this, no one will ever know whether that stunning bit of building work was ever done using only Parkside tools
That’s not my definition of winning.
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Westsounds
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It’s a good idea, and I’ve often thought the same about certain items, but it happens. And after you’re gone, what does it really matter anyway. And there's no accounting what will / may happen to your doomsday list either. Our prize possessions and often expensive items to the general population are nothing but rubbish. Even the hassle of getting rid of it let alone selling it is more than some people really don’t care to deal with.
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Westsounds
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oh no, we have a tool snob in our presence
Barrelhouse Solly
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Jewelry vs measurement device.
That can be the case, which makes it even trickier because you don't know what you're getting if you buy vintage.
Vintage DACs must be the stupidest Hifi thing you can buy considering the superb performance that many new cheap DACs have.
That doesn't seem to stop people for example from buying ,for example, this vintage DAC for around $2,500.:
Used Mark Levinson No 360S D/A Converters for Sale | HifiShark.com
Used Mark Levinson No 360S D/A Converters for sale on 400+ second hand hifi sites & shops. Use Hifi Shark to monitor pricing and global availability
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In terms of pure functionality, you are correct of course.
But some seek deeper meaning in their various devices, and sometimes, price is no object! The difference between "wretched excess" and "a celebration of design & craftsmanship" may be in the eye of the beholder. I may not personally see the appeal of much that appears in Robb Report, but neither would I wish to live in a Soviet-style planned economy, where some central planning committee decides what everyone "should" have.
By the same token, I may not understand the need for colorful, themed, bandages, but what do I know?
But some seek deeper meaning in their various devices, and sometimes, price is no object! The difference between "wretched excess" and "a celebration of design & craftsmanship" may be in the eye of the beholder. I may not personally see the appeal of much that appears in Robb Report, but neither would I wish to live in a Soviet-style planned economy, where some central planning committee decides what everyone "should" have.
By the same token, I may not understand the need for colorful, themed, bandages, but what do I know?
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Westsounds
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Perfect example with the reference DAC there, but there's piles of others out there too. Nothing but expensive paper weights, and an appealing purchase maybe even at a higher cost and a relative bargain to what they used to be. But modern stuff just trashes them plus your having something with new components, technology and something that'll last years, plus it'll usually have more functionality and be cheaper. These old dacs are clinging to their used values but it'll fall off a cliff eventually. If it doesn't break down that is.That can be the case, which makes it even trickier because you don't know what you're getting if you buy vintage.
Vintage DACs must be the stupidest Hifi thing you can buy considering the superb performance that many new cheap DACs have.
That doesn't seem to stop people for example from buying ,for example, this vintage DAC for around $2,500.:
Used Mark Levinson No 360S D/A Converters for Sale | HifiShark.com
Used Mark Levinson No 360S D/A Converters for sale on 400+ second hand hifi sites & shops. Use Hifi Shark to monitor pricing and global availabilitywww.hifishark.com
Salesmen can sell you what they have, that's all. It's difficult to trust anyone who has something to sell. Especially if there's a premium on it.
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Westsounds
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The only thing more stupid (sorry there's the stupid word again) than buying an expensive used DAC is buying a expensive used CD player. And I don't mean to use the derogatory word here to insult anyone, we're just having a discussion.
CD players though, moving parts, collection of unnecessary physical media at often lower resolution than streamed. Or what can be accessed from your library. But we've done all this before with vinyl and people still like it. There is a bigger pull with vinyl I believe though. The record from the big sleeve Jokes aside, even without the nostalgia, there's something to love about it all. And the distortion's 'nice'.
CD players though, moving parts, collection of unnecessary physical media at often lower resolution than streamed. Or what can be accessed from your library. But we've done all this before with vinyl and people still like it. There is a bigger pull with vinyl I believe though. The record from the big sleeve
Jokes aside, even without the nostalgia, there's something to love about it all. And the distortion's 'nice'.If we are being balanced here isn’t there also some reverse snobbery also going on here? For sure there is undoubtedly money being spent that doesn’t make objective sense from a sound perspective but how other people spend their money is a subjective judgement. And if they are not interested in measurements, which if we are honest with ourselves is nerdy, then who are we to judge if they spend their money on HiFi for other reasons?
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Westsounds
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Yeah for sure, and if you don't consider aesthetic as well we'd all be wearing the same clothes have similar appearances and live in identical cubicles as well. Style is an expression, and we are individuals but that's limited by cost too. Not many of us live in the house we want, it's more like the house we can afford. That said there is only so much property you can look after comfortably and after that it becomes gross indulgence and showing off. Can be the case with Hi-Fi, you get the twin 12 inch speakers but you feel you then want the twin 15s. It's just the way we're wired and our dopamine urges are constantly in search of the next thing. Most of us being audiophiles get that hit from the next purchase, upgrade, downgrade, cost effective solution, better specs cheaper product identified by ASR, or you name it.
Besides, that Mark Levinson No. 360S DAC doesn't have any appealing vintage looks in my eyes. Maybe people buy it because of the brand? Or for some other unfathomable reason.
Speaking of vintage looks selling. Hasn't it gotten a little out of hand?
I don't remember if I've already brought up this example in another thread, in which case here again:
I mean for example this Pioneer SX -777 receiver from 1991-92 with 65 watts:
V.S
This Pioneer SX-850 receiver from 1976-78 with 65 watts:
On the test bench I guess that the SX -777 would be the better one. BUT the SX-777 doesn't have the appealing vintage looks that the SX-850 has.
An SX-850 costs ten to fifteen times as much as an SX-777.
That's a bit crazy. For those interested in the prices check Hifishark.By the way, I had an SX-777 for a while a few years ago, as an extra amp. It worked flawlessly.