Snobbery in Hi-Fi. Why are people so stupid and turn their noses up at gear costing much less which is just as good?

[pinger]

We used to use the Garden State Pky to get from the Tpk to the NY Thruway (87/287) to go across the Tappan Zee bridge (EDIT excuse me! I meant, of course, the Mario Cuomo Bridge! ). A neighbor of ours in MA strongly recommended switching to the Palisades Pkwy, and it cut 1/2 hour off of our trip from MD to MA (or, now, NH). The only problem with the Palisades Pkwy is that the constabulary (two states' worth) is a common presence and takes the 55 (used to be 50) mph speed limit rather seriously.

EDIT: Irrelevant, whiny aside.
We've been doing what I call the "Mid-Atlantic Slog" for well over 40 years! Mrs. H and I met at Hopkins, but her parents had retired to NH, so she, and later we, would schlepp back and forth several times a year. Later, we moved to MA, but both of our kids went to college in the DC/MD area. More schlepping. Now, we and our daughter and her family all live in NH... but our son, his wife, and their cats live in NoVA. MORE schlepping. Fated to do it for life, methinks.

I actually like the GSP. Well paved and mostly more than two lanes. Palisades is two lanes and the 55 speed limit i dont find that objectionable since the terrain is rougher then the GSP ie hilly and windy. Palisades pavement sucks though. Bumpy and potholes galore .Other than the crazy drivers the GSP is fine. There are also crazy drivers on Taconic Parkway in NY, I wont comment on the bridge name. I might get in trouble. I've been coached

 

[ahofer]

Interestingly (or not), guitar players prefer valve/tube amps, for the obvious reasons of the distortion you get when over-driven. Increasingly though, with very cheap digital modelling available, many are going for much cheaper class-D FRFR amps, and are quite happy. The valve/tube fans don't always realize that 90% of valve amps are essentially the same reference design, going back to RCA in the 40s or 50's. Differences are mostly down to how much overdrive is forced, and the implementation of tone control stages, but what both the valve and FRFR users are finding out is that by far the greatest variation in what they call "tone" is from the speakers they choose. Or maybe tone is just from fingers/tone wood/magic chilli sauce/leprechauns. Point is that there is a huge parallel to HiFi fans over the same myths and magic - you'd be surprised how often a blind test will floor the guitar crowd, even when (especially when?) there is a 20x difference in prices.

It seems like the high end amp/cab modeling products have kind of nailed this. I doubt people can tell the difference, at least from the PA. On stage introduces tells.

 

[Redacted]

It seems like the high end amp/cab modeling products have kind of nailed this. I doubt people can tell the difference, at least from the PA. On stage introduces tells.

Yes - I think very good kit at a sensible price is changing minds....

A lot of people who are not sure there is much of difference between trad amp/guitar and a pedal/cheap amp/Chinese guitars are right and voting with their wallets - I reckon there is a lag in the HiFi world, as it's a 'hobby' that's more for older people with more disposable cash and a lifetime of "brand dependency", but kids (and skinflints like me) are buying affordable instruments. A lot of the traditional western HiFi brands (and guitar makers) will die out - we know that many HiFi brands are really just shells sticking their brand name on Chinese products (designed as well as built) and sooner or later actual Chinese brands will be entirely accepted by die-hards. Topping is an example, and several more, of becoming almost household names.

Having said that, in the summer I bought a Valeton GP-5 for £65 - it's an amazing DSP micro-pedal, which for me as a guitar hobbyist is "good enough" and saves a ton of space in my office. I can tell however, that's it's a cheap unit for reason - artifacts, grit, "non-linear-ish" response depending output from the guitar and more. That's a problem when I play using my "HiFi ears", but not a deal breaker for the price. Playing directly into my valve amp with a bit of gain is a way better tone, but the pedal offers so many useful effects on top, it's worth having. I can't see a real musician using one, but I have heard (way) more expensive modelling and effects pedals being used live on stage many times of late with excellent results (e.g. Quad Cortex).

Sorry to diverge from HiFi, but I think even bigger changes are still to come to kit and brands. If only some outfit can really crack (genuinely) new technology speakers for a sensible price - it seems like the last frontier!

 

[Westsounds]

Yes - I think very good kit at a sensible price is changing minds....

A lot of people who are not sure there is much of difference between trad amp/guitar and a pedal/cheap amp/Chinese guitars are right and voting with their wallets - I reckon there is a lag in the HiFi world, as it's a 'hobby' that's more for older people with more disposable cash and a lifetime of "brand dependency", but kids (and skinflints like me) are buying affordable instruments. A lot of the traditional western HiFi brands (and guitar makers) will die out - we know that many HiFi brands are really just shells sticking their brand name on Chinese products (designed as well as built) and sooner or later actual Chinese brands will be entirely accepted by die-hards. Topping is an example, and several more, of becoming almost household names.

Having said that, in the summer I bought a Valeton GP-5 for £65 - it's an amazing DSP micro-pedal, which for me as a guitar hobbyist is "good enough" and saves a ton of space in my office. I can tell however, that's it's a cheap unit for reason - artifacts, grit, "non-linear-ish" response depending output from the guitar and more. That's a problem when I play using my "HiFi ears", but not a deal breaker for the price. Playing directly into my valve amp with a bit of gain is a way better tone, but the pedal offers so many useful effects on top, it's worth having. I can't see a real musician using one, but I have heard (way) more expensive modelling and effects pedals being used live on stage many times of late with excellent results (e.g. Quad Cortex).

Sorry to diverge from HiFi, but I think even bigger changes are still to come to kit and brands. If only some outfit can really crack (genuinely) new technology speakers for a sensible price - it seems like the last frontier!

Yes but Topping are using high spec components and chips, as good as high grade reference stuff without the silly price tags. Why woundn’t people like them, even people who usually spend the silly money. The biggest thing with the likes of Topping are the resale values as they just keep building better and better products. They keep making their older stuff obsolete, as they are not the cheapest of the chi-fi. So if you bought a DAC for a grand for example, don’t expect a good resale on it. I’ve seen it.

And as for the guitar stuff, I play guitar myself and that world is even more insanity. We are talking about low-fi instruments. Jimi Hendrix one of the most revered artist of all time never had this choice. He used knackered cabinets, whatever pedals he could get hold of and even a right-handed guitar, and he didn’t have abundant access to left-handed ones back then. Yet his music is still some of the most emulated and sort after tones of all time, well he was just creating with what he had. It's become far too hi-fi these days and people are falling down the same rabbit hole as us audiophile have or did. Complete nonsense chasing gear. I mean those legends chased gear and different sounds, but it was nothing like the choice now. Even a cheap Zoom pedal would have blown those guys away back then. ‘What you can make an amp sound like other amps’! What I don't need lots of pedals. What I don’t even need to lug these cabinets around at all!

 

[ahofer]

Yes - I think very good kit at a sensible price is changing minds....

A lot of people who are not sure there is much of difference between trad amp/guitar and a pedal/cheap amp/Chinese guitars are right and voting with their wallets - I reckon there is a lag in the HiFi world, as it's a 'hobby' that's more for older people with more disposable cash and a lifetime of "brand dependency", but kids (and skinflints like me) are buying affordable instruments. A lot of the traditional western HiFi brands (and guitar makers) will die out - we know that many HiFi brands are really just shells sticking their brand name on Chinese products (designed as well as built) and sooner or later actual Chinese brands will be entirely accepted by die-hards. Topping is an example, and several more, of becoming almost household names.

Having said that, in the summer I bought a Valeton GP-5 for £65 - it's an amazing DSP micro-pedal, which for me as a guitar hobbyist is "good enough" and saves a ton of space in my office. I can tell however, that's it's a cheap unit for reason - artifacts, grit, "non-linear-ish" response depending output from the guitar and more. That's a problem when I play using my "HiFi ears", but not a deal breaker for the price. Playing directly into my valve amp with a bit of gain is a way better tone, but the pedal offers so many useful effects on top, it's worth having. I can't see a real musician using one, but I have heard (way) more expensive modelling and effects pedals being used live on stage many times of late with excellent results (e.g. Quad Cortex).

Sorry to diverge from HiFi, but I think even bigger changes are still to come to kit and brands. If only some outfit can really crack (genuinely) new technology speakers for a sensible price - it seems like the last frontier!

I bought a Sire (T7tm), a $600 guitar a few months ago. I did have it plekked, although the adjustments were tiny. It stands up to almost anything I’ve played, feels great, and is incredibly stable. Manufacturing machinery with ever tighter tolerances plus new wood ‘roasting’ processes seem to make for great instruments.

 

[Redacted]

Yes but Topping are using high spec components and chips, as good as high grade reference stuff without the silly price tags. Why woundn’t people like them, even people who usually spend the silly money. The biggest thing with the likes of Topping are the resale values as they just keep building better and better products. They keep making their older stuff obsolete, as they are not the cheapest of the chi-fi. So if you bought a DAC for a grand for example, don’t expect a good resale on it. I’ve seen it.

And as for the guitar stuff, I play guitar myself and that world is even more insanity. We are talking about low-fi instruments. Jimi Hendrix one of the most revered artist of all time never had this choice. He used knackered cabinets, whatever pedals he could get hold of and even a right-handed guitar, and he didn’t have abundant access to left-handed ones back then. Yet his music is still some of the most emulated and sort after tones of all time, well he was just creating with what he had. It's become far too hi-fi these days and people are falling down the same rabbit hole as us audiophile have or did. Complete nonsense chasing gear. I mean those legends chased gear and different sounds, but it was nothing like the choice now. Even a cheap Zoom pedal would have blown those guys away back then. ‘What you can make an amp sound like other amps’! What I don't need lots of pedals. What I don’t even need to lug these cabinets around at all!

I suspect if Topping stuck a badge on - say Mackintosh for sake of argument - they could charge 5x as much and everyone would be gushing!

The problem with guitars/amps/pedals is that most players are trying to reproduce the sound of someone else who is/was great. The trick they are missing is to make their own music with their own sound, but instead, they are fooled by the brands that if they simply buy X/Y/Z then they too will sound great. It rarely happens. The thing about Hendrix, apart from actually being able to play and create, was that he defined a sound with kit that available to him, but "kids today etc etc", think you can buy that thing. I cannot originate - I'm simply pleased if I can sing and play a version of something (this afternoon I was doing Pulp's "Got To Have Love", a 4-chord wonder song, and Bowie's Cygnet Committee and All the Young Dudes, old git that I am).

 

[ahofer]

I suspect if Topping stuck a badge on - say Mackintosh for sake of argument - they could charge 5x as much and everyone would be gushing!

The problem with guitars/amps/pedals is that most players are trying to reproduce the sound of someone else who is/was great. The trick they are missing is to make their own music with their own sound, but instead, they are fooled by the brands that if they simply buy X/Y/Z then they too will sound great. It rarely happens. The thing about Hendrix, apart from actually being able to play and create, was that he defined a sound with kit that available to him, but "kids today etc etc", think you can buy that thing. I cannot originate - I'm simply pleased if I can sing and play a version of something (this afternoon I was doing Pulp's "Got To Have Love", a 4-chord wonder song, and Bowie's Cygnet Committee and All the Young Dudes, old git that I am).

Tone is in the fingers. That’s why a good demo guy on YouTube is worth a lot. See also, Larry Carlton playing and comparing his famous vintage 335 to the $850 Sire equivalent (you can find it on YouTube)

 

[Westsounds]

I suspect if Topping stuck a badge on - say Mackintosh for sake of argument - they could charge 5x as much and everyone would be gushing!

The problem with guitars/amps/pedals is that most players are trying to reproduce the sound of someone else who is/was great. The trick they are missing is to make their own music with their own sound, but instead, they are fooled by the brands that if they simply buy X/Y/Z then they too will sound great. It rarely happens. The thing about Hendrix, apart from actually being able to play and create, was that he defined a sound with kit that available to him, but "kids today etc etc", think you can buy that thing. I cannot originate - I'm simply pleased if I can sing and play a version of something (this afternoon I was doing Pulp's "Got To Have Love", a 4-chord wonder song, and Bowie's Cygnet Committee and All the Young Dudes, old git that I am).

True, or dCS even, then they could charge 20x. And in a blind test I bet nobody could tell the difference even if the dCS are supposedly the best ever DAC’s ever created (absolute nonsense)

There are so many variables with guitar, and everyone’s muscle makeups, and the way they play can be so different as well, everything has and influence on the final sound. You could give some of these greats a $5 ‘hello kitty’ guitar, and it still sounds like them shredding. And its actually been done Google Zack Wild hello kitty

 

[EJ3]

I suspect if Topping stuck a badge on - say Mackintosh for sake of argument - they could charge 5x as much and everyone would be gushing!

What you suspect is a fantasy:
Topping does not have the reliability, reparability, parts availability or customer service cred.
I don't and also would not own one (My son lives in China & he doesn't own one. either).
While I'm not a big fan of Mackintosh, (I would not own one, either), these are attributes
that one also pays for, if they are important to them.
I do.
Which is why my daily use gear (which all has a SINAD of 90+ [and is mostly from the late 1970's through early 2000's])
still plays just fine. Several of the companies that made them are still around, too. And the repair parts are available.

I suddenly felt the need to quote a friend of mine who does like McIntosh (Vince Naeve [who has worked for companies such as Apt, H.H. Scott, and KLH]).

"Since I mention McIntosh, yes I am a born again Mac fan. Those Mac amps and preamps ant tuners, (both tube and solid state), when restored properly are excellent. Yes they definitely have that veiled, warm sound character, but what annoys me is so many people are operating them at sub par performance. They too also need aging capacitor replacement to return them to original state. It’s fairly easy to upgrade the crucial parts. In fact from my point of view these are not as costly to service as people have been lead to believe. These are the easy items to fix and upgrade, plenty of space to add in parts and restore and improve the fidelity. As an overview, I’m annoyed some shops charge high dollars to fix such products, as there are the easier ones to fix".

 

[Redacted]

Prices are getting so low that repairs risk becoming not worth it.

 

[mhardy6647]

Mackintosh

Asian "clone"?

 

[EJ3]

Prices are getting so low that repairs risk becoming not worth it.

No, they are not, when you KNOW that the repaired gear will out last you.
Of course, if you have people doing the repairs that don't know JACK SHIT about what they are doing,
well then that is your own DAMN fault.
Enjoy buying new all the time and helping the environment by helping fill up the landfill.

 

[EJ3]

Asian "clone"?

Chances of that happening with my gear: not any at all.
I go by what my Asian (from Asia, not the USA) wife says:
If it was made in Asia and it is not made of silk, it's long term quality is suspect. (That does not mean that I do not own anything from Asia [a wonderful Montague bike is one]).
But, naturally, I had to test my wife< so I said:
"You were made in Asia, what about you?". With below ZERO seconds hesitation, she slapped the hell out of me.

 

[Sal1950]

Like wearing a Rolex or driving a Rolls or Lambroghini. All will make a statement to others about your personal wealth and things the wearer values.
No matter how much money I obtained I doubt I'd ever wear a watch of any type or drive a Rolls. But the first auto showroom I hit would be Corvette's looking for a new ZR1X. If I needed new amps I'd first have Amir measure a few McIntosh and D'Augostino's. To my eye, both offer incredible design beauty in their own particular way. Maybe a few of each to fill out my MultiChannel Audiophile Desires.

 

[Axo1989]

Chances of that happening with my gear: not any at all.
I go by what my Asian (from Asia, not the USA) wife says:
If it was made in Asia and it is not made of silk, it's long term quality is suspect. (That does not mean that I do not own anything from Asia [a wonderful Montague bike is one]).
But, naturally, I had to test my wife< so I said:
"You were made in Asia, what about you?". With below ZERO seconds hesitation, she slapped the hell out of me.

You are going from strength to strength with these posts. Again, do consider video.

 

[JRowland]

Lambroghini

 

[PristineSound]

Plenty of people here talking about how a Casio is more accurate and how wearing a Patek, Rolex or driving a Lamborghini is to show off or to impress others.

This is the age old hate on people who appreciate and can afford the finer things in life. Yes, I said the finer things in life and I said it without quotes.

There are many people in this world, I for one included, enjoy the finer things in life for pure self gluttony and not to impress others. I would love to have a bigger home, for self enjoyment even if no one visits. I enjoy driving very nice sport cars because of the smile it brings to my face when I take a corner at 70 MPH. I enjoy lobster and filet mignon because of the sizzle it brings to my taste bugs. And just like I how I like beautiful women for my own enjoyment in the bedroom.

If you can afford it, I hope you brought it for your own gluttonous enjoyment and not be a snob jerk to others. If you can't afford it, just shut up and live your poor life in content or work harder to be able to afford it (both describes me).

Not a new debate.

Some people appreciate the precision craftsmanship of a Patek over an Apple Watch. They both tell time, the Patek can be handed down to your grandkids.

There is certainly a point of diminishing returns in audio. Your point of demarcation may be different then others based on your circumstances, means, and use case.

Ryobi works. Makita just works better for harder jobs over and over again. Is Festool better than Makita, yes. Is it worth 3x the price for me, no.

Is Makita worth 2x the price over Ryobi - for me 100%.

Right on the money, I actually started a thread on tools. I went from cheapo Black & Decker (equivalent to Ryobi) to DeWalt, night and day difference.

While I don't buy the best of everything because it's just not affordable, but I am at the stage in my life, where I am done with always buying the cheapest crap. Not all expensive products are great, just like there is not such thing as the cheapest product being the best. Facts, like it or not.

 

[EJ3]

You are going from strength to strength with these posts. Again, do consider video.

Which video would that be?

 

[john61ct]

The suggestion is to publish some videos of your Asian wife "slapping the hell out of you"

+1

 

[JeffS7444]

I found yet another Luxury Academy video that I liked. And while "Are we witnessing the death of aspiration in luxury" may not sound immediately germane to this topic, listen a bit further as he notes a shift in the market, particularly among younger consumers, away from an old model of buying into luxury as an external way of signaling one's place on the success ladder to others, to one in which the motivations are more internal. And the notion of luxury purchases as private indulgences appeals to me.