Snake Oil Department, Top This

[SuicideSquid]

I dunno, really? In the US this could be considered criminal copyright infringement with possible jail time. Downloading is one thing, selling pirated media is a horse of a very different colour. Especially given how many albums they're selling per customer...

Yes really, unfortunately. I am unaware of a single criminal copyright infringement case ever being brought in Canada, though it is technically a crime. I just did a cursory review of case law and couldn't find anything.

If someone wanted to hold this business accountable, they'd have to bring a civil claim, but that's very unlikely for a number of reasons. As I noted in my previous post, you basically have to be doing this kind of infringement on an industrial level to get anyone's attention in Canada. Where you typically see copyright actually enforced in Canada are in matters of plagiarism or in unauthorized commercial use (for example, using a song on a film soundtrack without obtaining authorization). Counterfeiting or unauthorized distribution of copyright works? Almost never.

 

[MattHooper]

Well, the Internet and the influence of social media certainly encourages us to become judgemental and moralizing. I certainly feel the pull.

I admit my blood boils at plenty of the bogus products in high end audio. And as the market seems to be focussing ever more on the luxury positioning strategy of designing ultra expensive products for the richest audiophiles in which it seems to race to the top price in that regard. I actually really love audio jewelry- I enjoy looking at all the gear in audio shows, but when somebody comes up with another two way speaker for 50 or $60,000 and at this point we’re not supposed to blink an eye, it grinds my gears.

But I try to resist as much as I can to moralize about the purchases and judge other audiophiles. It’s a slippery slope and I am no doubt on that slope myself.

If somebody has $100,000 system and a very restricted range of music that he owns and likes, who am I to judge that he doesn’t love music? People can walk and chew gum at the same time - own expensive gear and also love the music they love, even if it’s not a big collection.

But even in the case where somebody is more focussed on the gear… so what? Nothing in principal wrong with that.

I’m not inclined to judge other audiophiles “gear fetishists” based on their gear/music collection because who am I to pretend to be inside their heads and decide exactly what they love or not? Maybe they can just afford a lot more expensive gear than I can. I’m not gonna tell them how much they like their music or not. I don’t see what good it would do - I think it would say more about myself and what I get out of putting somebody in a disparaging category, then it would about the accuracy or relevance of my judgement.

And if somebody’s judging where is this line crossed? It was suggested by somebody earlier that if you’re spending more money on audio gear than music this means you don’t care about the music as much as a gear and you are a gear fetishist.

Well, I’ve certainly spent a lot of money on my audio gear. Does that mean I don’t very much love the music too? Of course not.
As it happens in the past 10 years or so, I’ve spent quite a lot of money on the music since I got back into vinyl. But let’s say I didn’t get back into vinyl and I was just streaming music to my system. Well, streaming doesn’t cost very much at all, and I would’ve spent vastly more on my audio equipment. Does that automatically mean I don’t love the music and I’m simply a gear fetishist? If I’m only streaming music, which is fairly cheap, does this mean I have to have really cheap gear in order to avoid this categorization?

Who’s to judge?

Again, I prefer not to judge. As tempting as it is, I think it will almost always say something more about myself than the audiophile I am attempting to judge.

(which doesn’t mean I completely avoid doing so… far from it… but as an ideal….)

 

[AaronJ]

In the words of Clay Davis, “I’ll take any mother-f-er’s money if he GIVIN’ it away.”

As long as people are in the business of giving away money there will be people in the business of happily taking it.

 

[Jcrow]

Found a to me new brand .

RSP-55E:Products:SPEC CORPORATION

PRODUCTS RSP-55E

spec-corp.jp

“Spruce wood is a material that is also used for stringed instruments and is characterized by its musical resonance properties. Spruce is the source of beautiful timbres. At the same time, the spruce material also has the effect of increasing the bass, reproducing comfortable bass tones.
On the other hand, the Polypropylene Capacitor has very natural characteristics and reproduces the original sound naturally.
The Polypropylene Capacitor vibrates with the spruce, raising musical expression. Recommended for those who prefer realistic tone and natural spatial expression”

This is pretty wild.

 

[Salt]

Well, the Internet and the influence of social media certainly encourages us to become judgemental and moralizing. I certainly feel the pull.

I admit my blood boils at plenty of the bogus products in high end audio. And as the market seems to be focussing ever more on the luxury positioning strategy of designing ultra expensive products for the richest audiophiles in which it seems to race to the top price in that regard. I actually really love audio jewelry- I enjoy looking at all the gear in audio shows, but when somebody comes up with another two way speaker for 50 or $60,000 and at this point we’re not supposed to blink an eye, it grinds my gears.

But I try to resist as much as I can to moralize about the purchases and judge other audiophiles. It’s a slippery slope and I am no doubt on that slope myself.

If somebody has $100,000 system and a very restricted range of music that he owns and likes, who am I to judge that he doesn’t love music? People can walk and chew gum at the same time - own expensive gear and also love the music they love, even if it’s not a big collection.

But even in the case where somebody is more focussed on the gear… so what? Nothing in principal wrong with that.

I’m not inclined to judge other audiophiles “gear fetishists” based on their gear/music collection because who am I to pretend to be inside their heads and decide exactly what they love or not? Maybe they can just afford a lot more expensive gear than I can. I’m not gonna tell them how much they like their music or not. I don’t see what good it would do - I think it would say more about myself and what I get out of putting somebody in a disparaging category, then it would about the accuracy or relevance of my judgement.

And if somebody’s judging where is this line crossed? It was suggested by somebody earlier that if you’re spending more money on audio gear than music this means you don’t care about the music as much as a gear and you are a gear fetishist.

Well, I’ve certainly spent a lot of money on my audio gear. Does that mean I don’t very much love the music too? Of course not.
As it happens in the past 10 years or so, I’ve spent quite a lot of money on the music since I got back into vinyl. But let’s say I didn’t get back into vinyl and I was just streaming music to my system. Well, streaming doesn’t cost very much at all, and I would’ve spent vastly more on my audio equipment. Does that automatically mean I don’t love the music and I’m simply a gear fetishist? If I’m only streaming music, which is fairly cheap, does this mean I have to have really cheap gear commencement with the price of the music in order to avoid this categorization?

Who’s to judge?

Again, I prefer not to judge. As tempting as it is, I think it will almost always say something more about myself than the audiophile I am attempting to judge.

(which doesn’t mean I completely avoid doing so… far from it… but as an ideal….)

Amen.

 

[MattHooper]

In the words of Clay Davis, “I’ll take any mother-f-er’s money if he GIVIN’ it away.”

As long as people are in the business of giving away money there will be people in the business of happily taking it.

Personally, I don’t feel like I could get myself to produce a deceptive snake oil product just because there will be people happy to buy it.
Why not devote that time to something that actually works and in which you can maintain some integrity?

 

[Jcrow]

Well, the Internet and the influence of social media certainly encourages us to become judgemental and moralizing. I certainly feel the pull.

Who’s to judge?

Again, I prefer not to judge. As tempting as it is, I think it will almost always say something more about myself than the audiophile I am attempting to judge.

(which doesn’t mean I completely avoid doing so… far from it… but as an ideal….)

I think nice audio gear is great, I definitely agree about the term ‘audio jewellery’ too. I like nicely made equipment, that rationally I know I don’t really need, but I like having it and looking at it !
But I think it’s fair enough to critique and point out obvious bullshit. It’s also more about the manufacture’s claims than anyone’s consumer behaviour.
Claims a lot of companies make are converging on literal magic. Pretty soon companies are going to be spruiking amps that have been blessed by Shamans to reveal the ‘truest sound’ and unveil the next dimension of audio.
I think this craziness is fair game to critique. It’s also fairly unethical marketing to be honest. If someone wants to spend 20k on a tube amp or something, fair enough.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

But even in the case where somebody is more focussed on the gear… so what? Nothing in principal wrong with that.

Then why the defensiveness?
For such outlandishly fortunate, pampered, prosperous people, audiophiles seem really insecure, as if anything short of universal approbation is an affront to their honor.

 

[Short38]

Could the Magnus/Magneus whatever product be improved with a polypropylene film layer laminated between two of their lifters?

 

[MattHooper]

Then why the defensiveness?

You seem to have missed the point.

It’s very clear when somebody is using a term like “ gear fetishist” as a derisive judgement.

I was saying that trying to judge another audiophile’s values and internal motivations is an inherently messy project, and is especially subject to our own motivations in doing so, especially when we’re creating categories that have implicit value judgments. And even if somebody claims no such value judgment, it’s still the case that “ you love the gear, but I love the music more” judgements are going to be pretty arbitrary.

Basically it boils down to try not to be a dick about other audiophiles.

Speaking of…

For such outlandishly fortunate, pampered, prosperous people, audiophiles seem really insecure, as if anything short of universal approbation is an affront to their honor.

 

[Doodski]

You seem to have missed the point.

It’s very clear when somebody is using a term like “ gear fetishist” that they are rendering a derisive judgement.

RFLMAO.... I have been in the Canadian major cities web news commentary all afternoon commenting to idiots, fools and people living fictions/fantasies as if they are facts and it really gets to be tedious but I consider it a meaningful part time hobby that can maybe wake up a few people at best or at the least I hope anyway... So I popped in here @ ASR and saw your comment and loved it very much. Hehehe. gear fetishists and derisive judgements.. I am still giggling.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

It’s very clear when somebody is using a term like “ gear fetishist” as a derisive judgement.

so...if it doesn't apply to me, why would I care? (substitute whoever you want for me in that question)

 

[AaronJ]

Personally, I don’t feel like I could get myself to produce a deceptive snake oil product just because there will be people happy to buy it.
Why not devote that time to something that actually works and in which you can maintain some integrity?

I’d expect the vast majority of the population feels this way. It only takes 1 bad actor in every 100,000 people to ruin it for everyone else.

 

[MattHooper]

so...if it doesn't apply to me, why would I care? (substitute whoever you want for me in that question)

You seem to be asking why it would matter whether people are described or characterized accurately or not.

Shouldn’t the answer be fairly obvious?

If I wrote on this forum “RexrothPigeon is ignorant about how audio gear works and only purchases music in order to evaluate his gear” I suspect you might have something to say about that, at least correcting the record as to your actual views.

In fact in a recent interview with Floyd Toole on the audio unleashed podcast, Floyd was asked how he would respond to common audiophile characterizations like “objectivists/audio scientists like Toole don’t really listen to music and only care about measurements.” Toole, sought, understandably, to correct that misunderstanding of his and other engineer/scientists values and motivations (It is the love of music, he points out, that drives everyone of his colleagues to have chosen their path to begin with).

Again, you can be as Judgy as you want… but I’m pointing out those judgements are likely to be often wrong, or arbitrary, and they don’t do much more than reflect back on the person making the judgements IMO. So I don’t see them as terribly useful, informative, or helpful.

In my own case, if I were more into the gear than music, that would be perfectly fine. As it happens, surveying my own internal motivations and behaviour, I am extremely motivated by the love of music. That’s not a value judgment, just the facts as far as I can tell.

So if somebody is implying that the amount I’ve spent on my gear versus my music automatically suggests I hold the music in much lower value, I’m simply going to point out that assessment is incorrect. It doesn’t work that way. Either in my case or the case of many other audiophiles, including clearly plenty of ASR members.

I hope that explains what I’ve been getting at.

Cheers

 

[Jim Taylor]

For such outlandishly fortunate, pampered, prosperous people, audiophiles seem really insecure, as if anything short of universal approbation is an affront to their honor.

Basically it boils down to try not to be a dick about other audiophiles.

How do we then explain those particular members of AG who scurrilously attack Amir? Do they not seem insecure? Is that an inaccurate description? Does their behavior not deserve comment, and would that comment not amount to condemnation? After all, their comments make the comments here seem like a soft summer breeze.
Are there more people being a dick on this site compared to other sites? As for the ones that you think are being a dick ... are they worse than the dicks one sees on other audio sites? I was under the impression that things are in pretty good order here. And if things DO get out of hand, we can always rely on our moderator, who seems to do an excellent job, overworked and underpaid though he is.

Again, you can be as Judgy as you want… but I’m pointing out those judgements are likely to be often wrong, or arbitrary, and they don’t do much more than reflect back on the person making the judgements IMO.

All over this world, there are people who disagree with each other, in audio as well as other subjects. Some do so reasonably, while some are vicious and vociferous. And you are totally correct that such behavior reflects back on the person from whom it came ... ALL behavior does that, good or bad.
As much as I admire your attempt at gatekeeping the gatekeepers, I personally think it's best to let the public judge for themselves on this particular site. I think they can do that. They're big boys and girls.

 

[MattHooper]

How do we then explain those particular members of AG who scurrilously attack Amir? Do they not seem insecure? Is that an inaccurate description? Does their behavior not deserve comment, and would that comment not amount to condemnation? After all, their comments make the comments here seem like a soft summer breeze.
Are there more people being a dick on this site compared to other sites? As for the ones that you think are being a dick ... are they worse than the dicks one sees on other audio sites? I was under the impression that things are in pretty good order here. And if things DO get out of hand, we can always rely on our moderator, who seems to do an excellent job, overworked and underpaid though he is.



All over this world, there are people who disagree with each other, in audio as well as other subjects. Some do so reasonably, while some are vicious and vociferous. And you are totally correct that such behavior reflects back on the person from whom it came ... ALL behavior does that, good or bad.
As much as I admire your attempt at gatekeeping the gatekeepers, I personally think it's best to let the public judge for themselves on this particular site. I think they can do that. They're big boys and girls.

I’m not talking, of course of the idea that we have to refrain from all forms of judgement.
That’s obviously untenable.

I was simply giving my reasons for why I personally try to refrain from judging how much other audiophiles value music versus their gear. And I gave the reasons why I don’t find it particularly valuable, including the arbitrariness. And also why I don’t find it helpful to pass judgement on whether somebody ought to be valuing their music more. If somebody believes otherwise and wants to address why my reasoning is wrong, I’m all ears.

 

[Short38]

For an astounding selection of used and new snakes here is a screen shot from TMR audio. Don’t miss this opportunity!

 

[meesbaker]

Arent we kind of at the point where pretty much any integrated amplifier that costs 1000$+ is snake oil?

Wiim Amp Pro shows us that 120W per channel load independand + Bass management + Room EQ + DAC + StreamingOS can be done for 350$.

Meaning the actual amplification part is prolly just 100-200$ maximum.

So how can we still run around with those classic type amps that do nothing but red and white cable, make loud , no dsp no nothing, literally jus the amp for like 3-10 times the amount? All that stuff like rotel/arcam/marantz/hegel pure 2 channel analog amps for 750-3000$ and more.

Why would anyone buy that? Often they dont even pack spectacular power just overpriced 0% modern features amps all based on the promise of "great sound" which we know is bogus on amps - for just a make loud box.

Any amp thats 3-4 times more money than a wiim while doing considerably less is basically snake oil that plays out the lie that better amps sound better.

 

[Jcrow]

Arent we kind of at the point where pretty much any integrated amplifier that costs 1000$+ is snake oil?

Wiim Amp Pro shows us that 120W per channel load independand + Bass management + Room EQ + DAC + StreamingOS can be done for 350$.

Meaning the actual amplification part is prolly just 100-200$ maximum.

So how can we still run around with those classic type amps that do nothing but red and white cable, make loud , no dsp no nothing, literally jus the amp for like 3-10 times the amount? All that stuff like rotel/arcam/marantz/hegel pure 2 channel analog amps for 750-3000$ and more.

Why would anyone buy that? Often they dont even pack spectacular power just overpriced 0% modern features amps all based on the promise of "great sound" which we know is bogus on amps - for just a make loud box.

Any amp thats 3-4 times more money than a wiim while doing considerably less is basically snake oil that plays out the lie that better amps sound better.

Maybe in a purely rational sense you're right.

But I think it's a stretch to call anything over $1k snake oil. People want to have class A or A/B just like people want to have a mechanical watch. I mean we're not all walking around with Casios on our wrists, even though they keep better time and have more features than a Rolex.

For me personally, I want performance, but I also want to have something that is nice to look at and has a good amount of heft, and maybe an esoteric topology for the coolness factor. All unrelated to sound production but an important factor for me.

 

[meesbaker]

Maybe in a purely rational sense you're right.

But I think it's a stretch to call anything over $1k snake oil. People want to have class A or A/B just like people want to have a mechanical watch. I mean we're not all walking around with Casios on our wrists, even though they keep better time and have more features than a Rolex.

For me personally, I want performance, but I also want to have something that is nice to look at and has a good amount of heft, and maybe an esoteric topology for the coolness factor. All unrelated to sound production but an important factor for me.

True but you are very well aware of what you are doing and why.

Rolex doesnt claim selling anything other than jewelry. They dont market it as "never miss your appointment with rolex , you will be so on time."

The fact that measuring time is very easy these days is commonly well known and accepted.

With amps it is different. Theres the common opinion that your A/B or A soundsva lot better - I believed it myself when I got here a few weeks ago.

And these amp dealers play into that misconception when they most likely know the truth. The snakeyness is not that it wouldnt be fair to spemd extra for a cool amp it is the promise of the extra "warm and musical" sound that makes uninformed people open their wallet.