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Snake Oil Department, Top This

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Rick "not blaming the victims for being conned, or really anyone for spending money frivolously" Denney

I do believe willful ignorance is shameful and - yes, I blame the "victims" if they complain afterwards. But I completely and totally agree it's none of my business whatsoever how people spend their money, and I'd never call anyone out for that - their money, their choice.
 
I do believe willful ignorance is shameful and - yes, I blame the "victims" if they complain afterwards. But I completely and totally agree it's none of my business whatsoever how people spend their money, and I'd never call anyone out for that - their money, their choice.
With respect to the bolded phrase, I accept that as a friendly amendment. (That's where the laughing and pointing comes in.)

Rick "but not just when they complain; also when they boast" Denney
 
I think there’s a difference between puffery and fraud.

It’s one thing to use meaningless terms; another to lie about performance.
 
I think there’s a difference between puffery and fraud.

It’s one thing to use meaningless terms; another to lie about performance.
The line between puffery and fraud isn't always that clear. The manufacturers hide behind the subjective observations of those who praise the product, but those who praise the product often delude themselves on the basis of claimed credentials and prices. That feedback loop easily goes out of control and becomes self-defending. "The Rick-o-Magic achieves exactly what we claim, based on the first-hand experiences of our customers" followed by trotting out the comments from a fair sampling of them. "That many users and journalists can't be wrong." That makes it extremely difficult to prosecute a claim of fraud. But that's one reason they attack actual data (whether measurements of objective performance or properly observed and analyzed subjective preference testing, or both)--it breaks open the feedback loop.

Rick "but the makers know in their hearts that they are making it all up" Denney
 
I think there’s a difference between puffery and fraud.

It’s one thing to use meaningless terms; another to lie about performance.
Surely using a meaningless term in the context of selling a product is lying about its performance by another name ? If I say the red cosmic flux is reduced by this product which helps to stop phase smearing - I'm lying !
 
Well, yes, but I sorta resist the notion that a forum's job is to tell people how to spend their money. For me, the ethical problem isn't the price of these items--anybody who spends money irresponsibly for listening to music in their living room has a problem unrelated to the efficacy of those products. For me, the problem is the dishonesty of those who make, market, sell, and defend those products on the basis of myth and lore. The makers often know better but are guilty of selling water in bottles that is no better than the water coming out of the tap. Even that isn't a good analogy, because that water may be overpriced but at least it's packaged for portability and still provide hydration. But many of these products do nothing or even actively do the opposite of what their purveyors claim, and the makers (certainly) and many others in the sales and commentary chain know it. That's real cynicism and hostility to buyers in the market.

Rick "not blaming the victims for being conned, or really anyone for spending money frivolously" Denney
You can absolutely judge a person's character by how they choose to spend their money. We are not islands unto ourselves, we live in a society surrounded by other people and if you get off on ostentatious displays of wealth and showing off how much you have by being wasteful and frivolous, you're a ****** person. A big part of audiophilia isn't just acquiring expensive gear, it's showing off that expensive gear as a way to say "look at me, I'm so smart and have such refined taste and amazing ears, and money to burn to boot" and that's worthy of condemnation. It's also part of the psychology of why audiophiles are so resistant to objective information that suggests they wasted money or don't have the golden ears they think they have - it would show them to be foolish and not nearly as clever as they believe themselves to be, so they have to double-down on their foolishness and wastefulness.

Should there be a law against someone spending $10,000 on cables and $100,000 on amplifiers that perform no differently (or objectively worse) than $100 worth of cables and a $1,000 amplifier? No. Does the fact that it's not illegal mean it's not unethical? Also no.

Or to flip this slightly: I've encountered more than a few people in my time selling stereos and as a musician who would drop tens of thousands on audio equipment without hesitation and then steal the majority of their music collection rather than spend any money on CDs or LPs. IMO if you've spent more money on your amplifiers and cables than you have supporting real musicians who are making the things you're ostensibly so in love with listening to, you are
A: Not really a music fan, you're a gear fetishist; and
B: A bad person.
 
IMO if you've spent more money on your amplifiers and cables than you have supporting real musicians who are making the things you're ostensibly so in love with listening to, you are
A: Not really a music fan, you're a gear fetishist; and
B: A bad person.
I would say that is not the case for everyone

Not everyone has the funds to buy all the music they want to hear....vinyls are extremely pricy and even though digital downloads and cd's are cheaper someone would need to spend a lot to own all the music he might want.
 
Surely using a meaningless term in the context of selling a product is lying about its performance by another name ? If I say the red cosmic flux is reduced by this product which helps to stop phase smearing - I'm lying !

But it happens everywhere. Is every BMW really "The Ultimate Driving Machine"...? Can I really just "Pay with my good name" with an AMEX card and forget about getting a bill? :-)

Happens all the time and companies get away with it very often...
 
But it happens everywhere. Is every BMW really "The Ultimate Driving Machine"...? Can I really just "Pay with my good name" with an AMEX card and forget about getting a bill? :-)

Happens all the time and companies get away with it very often...
And todays politicians have taking lying to the next level. We live in the misinformation age.
 
You can absolutely judge a person's character by how they choose to spend their money. We are not islands unto ourselves, we live in a society surrounded by other people and if you get off on ostentatious displays of wealth and showing off how much you have by being wasteful and frivolous, you're a ****** person. A big part of audiophilia isn't just acquiring expensive gear, it's showing off that expensive gear as a way to say "look at me, I'm so smart and have such refined taste and amazing ears, and money to burn to boot" and that's worthy of condemnation

I would like to note a few things:

1) Although I don't like waste either, I must admit that anyone who earned that money has the perfect right to spend it as they please, whether we like it or not.
2) It's not constructive to criticize someone unless you can be damn sure that you wouldn't do the same exact thing if you were in the exact same situation.
3) Were there not times in the past in which rich, ostentatious behavior was adulated and held in high esteem? Maybe we're just going through a reactive phase.
4) Try to make sure that your criticism is not fueled more by envy than high morals. We are, after all, all human and subject to the same biases. And yes, that includes me. :rolleyes:

That being said, I do share your sentiments ... just in a manner that is not quite as judgemental. :)
 
You can absolutely judge a person's character by how they choose to spend their money. ...
Maybe. But it seems to me it's not the job of a forum or the people who participate in it to impose those judgements, or to set standards that may have no meaning to people from other cultures or circumstances. And you really have no idea about those people or whether they are tight or generous.

Rick "who has a few faults of his own" Denney
 
The line between puffery and fraud isn't always that clear. The manufacturers hide behind the subjective observations of those who praise the product, but those who praise the product often delude themselves on the basis of claimed credentials and prices. That feedback loop easily goes out of control and becomes self-defending. "The Rick-o-Magic achieves exactly what we claim, based on the first-hand experiences of our customers" followed by trotting out the comments from a fair sampling of them. "That many users and journalists can't be wrong." That makes it extremely difficult to prosecute a claim of fraud. But that's one reason they attack actual data (whether measurements of objective performance or properly observed and analyzed subjective preference testing, or both)--it breaks open the feedback loop.

Rick "but the makers know in their hearts that they are making it all up" Denney
I am not interested in prosecuting snake oil salesmen for fraud. But I think sources like ASR are good for discussing whether $1000 amps actually sound better than $400 amps, in typical listening situations. Not to mention, $40,000 amps.

It information is available, for anyone interested in saving money.

There are videos of people breaking and blowing stuff up. Some people must find this entertaining. I’m not completely immune.

I think it’s fairly rare for manufacturers to outright lie about verifiable numbers.

Except for power ratings. That seems to be a lost cause.
 
Maybe. But it seems to me it's not the job of a forum or the people who participate in it to impose those judgements...

I hate to judge in general unless some criminal act has been committed.

Other than that, occasional frivolous spending to me does not indicate a major character flaw.

As @rdenney mentioned, it's only when people spend ignorantly and brag obnoxiously AND ignorantly that it may trigger a little judgement... :-)
 
I am not interested in prosecuting snake oil salesmen for fraud. But I think sources like ASR are good for discussing whether $1000 amps actually sound better than $400 amps, in typical listening situations. Not to mention, $40,000 amps.

It information is available, for anyone interested in saving money.

There are videos of people breaking and blowing stuff up. Some people must find this entertaining. I’m not completely immune.

I think it’s fairly rare for manufacturers to outright lie about verifiable numbers.

Except for power ratings. That seems to be a lost cause.
Manufacturers of snake oil products often utterly eschew measurements and campaign against their use. You've heard my opinion of that, however difficult it would be to prosecute them for fraud. And it is very much what this site does to expose such for what it is using meaningful measurements.

But the real snake oil is a lie based on a lie. They lie that being expensive makes it more effective, and they lie that what they are selling has a salutary effect of any sort when it often had none at all. A box of dirt to be used as a ground? An audiophile power cable? Audiophile USB cables? These are cynical rip-offs, and they survive only on the testimonials of a willing press and severely biased customer testimonials. They make the lie stick by charging four figures for the box of dirt.

The people who are deluded by such are not the criminals, until they start aggressively expecting others to believe them or fix it when they discover they've been deluded.

It's not the old lady who thinks the eye-of-newt supplement will ease her discomforts who is at fault--she wants to believe even if she knows down deep that it's just a placebo effect. It's the "doctor" who claims special expertise and knowledge that everyone would recognize were it not for the FDA or Big Pharma or whatever "covering it up".

Now, let me identify three amps for consideration: A Buckeye NC502MP, a Benchmark AHB-1, and a Krell Duo 300XD. Prices are $750, $3500, and $13,000 (at the few retailers that still have them), respectively, based on my quick googling. The Benchmark is the least powerful of the three, but let's say they are all powerful enough not to clip at the desired listening levels. Would any of us be able to tell the difference between them reliably into the majority of speakers? Probably not. Are any of them snake oil? Absolutely not. All three deliver exactly what they say they deliver.

But the Krell...

krell_duo300xd.jpg


Looks a lot cooler than the Benchmark...

AHB2_SilverAngle_800x.JPG


Which looks a lot cooler than the Buckeye...

image


And the Krell might do it into 1-ohm Wilson speakers, and we all are pretty aware that the Benchmark is made better and more reliably than the Hypex module in the Buckeye. (I own the Buckeye, by the way, and am completely happy with it.) But from a purely functional viewpoint, we doubt anyone would be able to distinguish them in controlled subjective testing.

But if I was the kind of guy who hires an interior designer to help me arrange my Picasso collection around my $200,000 Fazioli grand piano, the Buckeye may well just not do.

None of these are in any way relatable to audiophile USB cords, cable lifters, or boxes of dirt which have precisely zero efficacy.

Rick "interior designers need to eat, too, as do the former workers in the Krell factory in Connecticut" Denney
 
I think final proof that we skeptics lost the fight was when the digital snake oil started to proliferate. We were already on the ropes with mains cables and fuses but the claims around USB cables and audiophile grade network switches was a knockout! What it proved however was that the target audience for this crap was already primed to believe the claims. Let's face it, back in the physical magazine days, reviewers were fewer and their opinions more concentrated in the HiFi community. Even though this didn't stop them endorsing questionable products, there was still a sort of code enforced by their relative notoriety.

In the internet era however, we have a sea of "reviewers" many of whom are merely enthusiastic amateurs and their only worth is measured in how many people read their reviews. This crop of evaluators aren't dependent on their reviews as a living, they mostly do it a a side hustle and subsequently don't really have a dog in the fight. If they can cream off a few products to add to their own HiFi shrine, all good so they're basically at liberty to spin any amount of florid prose extolling the virtues of any product that comes their way. No consequences!

Fortunately for these part-timers, there's a ready made positive-feedback loop to inject their material into that just keeps getting more plausibility as individuals who buy the rubbish add their, invariably positive and reinforcing comments to the reviews.
 
Why would I want it to sound nicer? Theres nothing positive about this.
You wouldn’t. It was an ironic remark.
 
I do believe willful ignorance is shameful and - yes, I blame the "victims" if they complain afterwards.
Seems like they've already received their punishment (paying too much money & getting snake oil), so I don't get the urge to heap on more blame after.

Personally, I empathize with them. We're all vulnerable to dumb thinking and manipulation by cannier groups or individuals, after all.
 
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