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Snake Oil Department, Top This

Mart68 said:
Of course you are right, but that's not how it plays out in the real world where the superficial does matter.
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Every luxury brand is like that. Do you really think a Lexus is massively more expensive to produce than a Toyota? Brand engineering is not a scam. It is a key element of product positioning, like it or not, and the concept of "perceived value" has always been at the core of many pricing discussions in market economy.

The difference between buying a Hermes Birkin bag or buying a 10k speaker cable is that the latter will sell the benefits with pseudoscience lies. Hermes doesn't - people just want one because of what it is, and the value proposition is just about feeling good. Some watch brands have tried that at times, pushing a movement that operates at 36k bpm as being more accurate than the typical 28k bpm. Which of course is stupid and dishonest (and I don't think they do it anymore).

And that's a huge difference, in my opinion. Try that is the supplement industry ("Our smart pills will improve your IQ") and the FDA will shut you down. I don't understand why some audio snake oil companies get away with it, but I guess it's simply because their customers don't sue over such claims.
 
pablolie said:
Well go try claim your supplement cures cancer and (despite the mandatory FDA disclaimer) let us know how long you stayed in business...
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I forget when, but maybe in the 50s, a court case settled the issue of advertising puffery.

If I cite a specific industry standard and say my product measures such and such, it better.

But if my claims are limited to words like more and better, or subjective kinds of impressions, I can make any claim I want.

Medical claims are a bit more restricted, but vague claims are pretty much allowed.
 
Petrushka said:
...
But if my claims are limited to words like more and better, or subjective kinds of impressions, I can make any claim I want.
...
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That's not what our legal department says. :) Every time I make a statement in our products claims I get asked by legal for some justification (which sometimes indeed involves some educated guess work, though).
 
pablolie said:
That's not what our legal department says. :) Every time I make a statement in our products claims I get asked by legal for some justification (which sometimes indeed involves some educated guess work, though).
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I assume you aspire to quaint notions of ethics.

Any qualitative claim is legal. Perhaps you desire repeat customers.
 
Cbdb2 said:
The way they shut down oxycodone when it was killing thousands?
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And then there the fact it cost them billions and will cost them more. There *is* a huge liability in false advertising in many industries, my point is audio for some reason seems immune to it. Not that market economy only rewards companies with the highest ethics.
 
pablolie said:
That's not what our legal department says. :) Every time I make a statement in our products claims I get asked by legal for some justification (which sometimes indeed involves some educated guess work, though).
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When I write marketing copy (and as I used to be instructed by my CMO) I try to find superlatives that are also subjective and non-quantifiable. "Most is a must", she would say. When you don't have the highest quantifiable performance, you can always be "the best tasting" or "the most engaging" or "the easiest", or "the world's smoothest", etc.
Cbdb2 said:
The way they shut down oxycodone when it was killing thousands?
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It might be worth pointing out that "supplements" and "drugs" are two completely different categories with two completely different regulatory regimes in the US.

Drugs have to be proven safe & effective before they hit the market. There are valid reasons to ask why opioids made it to the market in the way they did, but the FDA was not the only failure mode there.

Supplements just can't be known to be dangerous and can't claim to "treat, prevent, or cure any disease" which is why they always say that on the label. In fact, in practice nobody is usually even checking to see if they contain the ingredients on the label.
 
one is reminded of the SkinSoSoft product from Avon... reputed to be a very good insect (mosquito) repellent.
Avon's marketing hinted at this with the tagline "Discover the Secret". :cool:
Those rascals. Avon that is, not the mosquitos.
 
Anyone who spends 25k on one in this day where it’s so easy to get information and tested results absolutely deserves it!
 
If anything, the Telos Audio QBT is a direct affront on those who believe that cables do not make a sonic difference in a hi-fi system–or people who do not think that cable burn-in is a real thing.
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Not really, more like a direct affront on the wallets of people who don't bother to think through (or don't know enough to) how and why such a device might (not) work.

I can almost get into the mindset of a cable-burn-in person reading this. If you have accepted that mysterious and arcane attributes of the materials that make up your audio system have subtle but important effects on sound, you would tend to go for something like this.

And frankly it is easy to see how someone could fall under that impression. Consumer audio marketing frequently leans on this or that material having certain audible properties. It's somewhat true when it comes to loudspeakers, but the marketing doesn't stop there.

Even the least informed person here has probably forgotten what it's like to genuinely know nothing about audio, but if you really come to the table with nothing, (say a degree in finance at best) it's not immediately obvious that music and every other type of electronic signal works the same way.

I think I vaguely recall... and basically I assumed there was some novel technical explanation behind every novel marketing term. I implicitly believed audio technology was incredibly complex and every audio company was somewhat innovative, and there was a significant "art" to building any kind of audio gear. New frontiers of sound quality were waiting around every (incomprehensible) corner. Technical or psychoacoustic limits on sound quality didn't exist because I hadn't heard of them.

Imagine having that mindset, but also having a high 5 figure budget to spend on audio?
 
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I think Shunyata has meen mentioned. And the Shunyata Everest power conditioner has been mentioned. Now we have a power conditioner on Harmonic Resolution feet. Delicate electronics need protection from vibration, I guess.

Screenshot 2024-12-10 at 8.25.18 AM.png



Harmonic Resolution would like a word.

 
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Man, I could buy a pair of Swarovski binos, replace both my TVs and all of my electronics, get a new MacBook Pro, and have money left over for what these sort of folks pay for all this crap for their "highly resolving" systems. :facepalm:
 
kemmler3D said:
I can almost get into the mindset of a cable-burn-in person reading this. If you have accepted that mysterious and arcane attributes of the materials that make up your audio system have subtle but important effects on sound, you would tend to go for something like this.
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I have read*** reviews (from end users to "professionals") that make the claim that if you have an existing set of cables in your "reference" system and have to move them/unplug-plug them when auditioning new gear that you needed to let the cables "settle" in for 2 or 3 days before doing any serious listening.

Obviously we at ASR don't understand how upsetting it is for the atoms in a copper or silver cable when the cable is moved/unplugged-replugged.. wont someone think of the atoms!!!!

Also remember the quantum 10x rule... non-quantum device $2500..quantum device $25,000

Peter

*** cant stand video reviews/commentary/podcasts etc... it's only ever the written word for me.
 
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Ken1951 said:
Man, I could buy a pair of Swarovski binos
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Mrs. H went to the Zeiss Victory SF 10 x 42 as her field glasses some years back. The Swarovski ELs (8.5 x 42, if memory serves) are now in the living room by the window to look at the birdfeeder. ;)
I still like the feel of the Swarovskis better. :rolleyes:
 
mhardy6647 said:
Mrs. H went to the Zeiss Victory SF 10 x 42 as her field glasses some years back. The Swarovski ELs (8.5 x 42, if memory serves) are now in the living room by the window to look at the birdfeeder. ;)
I still like the feel of the Swarovskis better. :rolleyes:
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I like the 8X styles for most work and 10X when I'm on the shore/lakes or other long distance. I have to say top marks to Nikon for service and standing behind their binoculars. I sent in two pair recently - one that my wife bought me at least 3 decades ago that had developed junk inside the tubes and a pair I bought for my recently passed mom almost 20 years ago that had double vision. The more recent pair Nikon replaced with the current model, and the much older pair they gave me a decent $ credit to use at the Nikon online store which I used to buy a pair of Monarch 5s for our son's partner. Can't ask for better service/support than that!
 
Good to hear re: Nikon!
"We" had Swarovski rebuild Mrs. H's car binos (a pair of Habicht 8 x 20 or whatever they are that I got for her about 30 years ago) that had fogged internally about 2 years ago. Zero cost to us except shipping them to (if memory serves) NJ. Kind of hard to complain.
Mrs. H also had the coarse-feeling focus issue with the Zeiss a few years back. They were also very easy to deal with for service.
One does, kinda sorta, tend to get what one pays for.

Pretty short on snake oil from these brands of binoculars -- you know, to keep things right on topic! :)
 
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