• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Snake oil and the differences between LP pressings?

Blumlein 88

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
20,524
Likes
37,057
An 1890 operetta based on the Grimm tale. Humperdinck wrote it after producing Parsifal at Bayreuth, during the time he was teaching at the Hoch Conservatory in Frankfurt. Richard Strauss conducted the first performance, but this record is Max Rudolf conducting the Met. I'm thinking you're thinking of someone else? Maybe the popular singer? Or did I miss something?
I was thinking of the popular singer, and yes I knew he took the name of the person who wrote the fairy tale. So I having a bit of fun about it. Sorry, such things aren't always clear in typed posts.
 

anmpr1

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
3,722
Likes
6,406
. . .
Seriously, The Prisoner and the Fugitive should've been boiled down to one smallish volume.
100% agree. A steady decline in the quality, beginning with volume four, making five and six etc. almost unreadable. The reason? Other than the fact that there is only so much one man can do, and I give him credit for that, in the early books he was mostly talking about others. Analyzing other characters and places was/is always fascinating. Once he started talking about himself, his distasteful neuroses and obsessions took over, and the project really turned into bad psychodrama. Half way through his incessant whining about Albertine, who died falling off a horse, I pretty much wanted to throw the narrator off a horse and be done with it.

That said, there is something about recovering lost memories and experiences. One can do that through music, and the various mediums of playback. Certain music invokes certain experiences in a palpable way. Holding certain records evokes this past spirit. In this, digits on a drive can't compare. Too abstract.

PS: For longish novels some of the Chinese can't be beat. Hong Lou Meng, The Red Chamber Dream, pretty much holds together, in spite of its ambiguities in composition. For historical fiction and characterizations, Romance of the Three Kingdoms is worth pursuing. Journey to the West and The Water Margin stand poles apart. For something lighter, the three volumes of Feng Menglong short stories are fun to read, while listening to your favorite music.
 

anmpr1

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
3,722
Likes
6,406
I was thinking of the popular singer, and yes I knew he took the name of the person who wrote the fairy tale. So I having a bit of fun about it. Sorry, such things aren't always clear in typed posts.
I knew that... just playing along!:cool:
 

Robin L

Master Contributor
Joined
Sep 2, 2019
Messages
5,211
Likes
7,589
Location
1 mile east of Sleater Kinney Rd
That said, there is something about recovering lost memories and experiences. One can do that through music, and the various mediums of playback. Certain music invokes certain experiences in a palpable way. Holding certain records evokes this past spirit. In this, digits on a drive can't compare. Too abstract.

The memory trigger for me is the smell of reel-to-reel tape outgassing. To continue with these literary metaphors, PVC might be the closest thing to Imipolex G, all that psycho-sexual energy impressed onto black discs made of dead pterodactyls and swamp gas.

Ever heard an acoustic record played back on an acoustic player? Eerie.
parsons1a.jpg
 

anmpr1

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
3,722
Likes
6,406
Ever heard an acoustic record played back on an acoustic player? Eerie.
I've an old Thorens wind up crank 78 machine. It sort of folds up disassembled into a little suitcase. But with a steel needle it has enough crank for a 78 rpm disc. I don't use it much anymore, because it's hard to get them serviced, and you can forget about parts. LOL I can say, however, that you haven't heard Blue Ridge Mountain Blues until you've heard it on steel needle 78.

blue.jpg
 

Robin L

Master Contributor
Joined
Sep 2, 2019
Messages
5,211
Likes
7,589
Location
1 mile east of Sleater Kinney Rd
I've an old Thorens wind up crank 78 machine. It sort of folds up disassembled into a little suitcase. But with a steel needle it has enough crank for a 78 rpm disc. I don't use it much anymore, because it's hard to get them serviced, and you can forget about parts. LOL I can say, however, that you haven't heard Blue Ridge Mountain Blues until you've heard it on steel needle 78.

View attachment 33770
I worked at Ray Avery's Rare Records for a year. In addition to Victrolas they also had Edison cylinders and your choice of steel or bamboo (?) styli for acoustic players. Had plenty of 78s, bought more than a few myself.
 
Last edited:

anmpr1

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
3,722
Likes
6,406
I worked at Ray Avery's Rare Records for a year. I'm addition to Victrolas they also had Edison cylinders and your choice of steel or bamboo(?) still for acoustic players. Had plenty of 78s, bought more than a few myself.
Then you were fortunate to know Ray. What was he like?

This is going back so many years, but I guess it was the late '70s I knew an old man (Bob N___ ) who was a veritable library of knowledge on 78s, and the earlier cylinders. He was a very unassuming, gentle man with a sense of humor. His house was lined with 78s, along with machines that played them. His wife was gracious, and tolerated well his...I guess you could call it his obsession with a bygone era's music.

Mr. N. didn't scale well, and I'm pretty sure he never related to the introduction of the LP record. I bought some items from him, but you could tell that it was almost like he was selling his children. He mostly liked to talk, and was amazed that a kid was even interested in his sort of thing. He couldn't have lived much longer than the time I knew him, as he was frail even back then. The world of 78s is a world few of us born later really know much about. I guess it's the same for kids born in the streaming age, trying to figure out LPs. Or even CDs.
 

Robin L

Master Contributor
Joined
Sep 2, 2019
Messages
5,211
Likes
7,589
Location
1 mile east of Sleater Kinney Rd
Then you were fortunate to know Ray. What was he like?

This is going back so many years, but I guess it was the late '70s I knew an old man (Bob N___ ) who was a veritable library of knowledge on 78s, and the earlier cylinders. He was a very unassuming, gentle man with a sense of humor. His house was lined with 78s, along with machines that played them. His wife was gracious, and tolerated well his...I guess you could call it his obsession with a bygone era's music.

Mr. N. didn't scale well, and I'm pretty sure he never related to the introduction of the LP record. I bought some items from him, but you could tell that it was almost like he was selling his children. He mostly liked to talk, and was amazed that a kid was even interested in his sort of thing. He couldn't have lived much longer than the time I knew him, as he was frail even back then. The world of 78s is a world few of us born later really know much about. I guess it's the same for kids born in the streaming age, trying to figure out LPs. Or even CDs.
He was very fey, which would make one assume he was gay, which he wasn't. But his mannerisms probably have something to do with his absorption into the jazz scene, what with his background in photographing famous jazz artists. I suppose his model might have been Lester Young. There were plenty of folks in the music and film industry who were customers and they frequently called the store—"This is Leonard Feather"—and some would come in with records. There was the time Ray got word that Western Recorders was closing shop, he wanted whatever recordings were still there, like the entire radio run of Art Linkletter's "People Are Funny" on the radio. I suspect he was more interested in Armed Forces Radio Big-Band sessions. Jim Kweskin came to help schlepp out the boxes of tapes, 78's, 14" 33.3 radio discs and other junk. Ray had his own record label, transferred radio broadcasts that were out of copyright to LPs. Dr. Demento was a regular customer, raided the wall of 45s on a weekly basis, looking for the obscure and long out of print.

I was scooping up Dial 78s, having turned into a Charlie Parker fanatic. Also found Slim Galliard on the "Atomic" label, got the Comet 12'' 78's, "Red Norvo and his His Selected Sextet" that included Bird & Diz.

260489339877.jpg


Found a $1 78 of Dizzy Gillespie's "Manteca"when I was working there, the best sounding 78 I ever heard:

gilles_dizz_mantecaco_101b.jpg



Found the 3 disc 78 set of "Captain From Castile" at a thrift store, was able to trade it for Yardbird's "Now's the Time/Billie's Bounce".


R-9675979-1485437548-5184.jpeg.jpg


Everybody who worked there look like they walked out of the pages of a R. Crumb comic.

Also, this was the first place I knew of that carried the Sheffield Lab direct to disc LPs [along with other D to D's] along with the first Telarc Digital LPs. Lots of Japanese pressings of Jazz. I was scooping up Verve's Charlie Parker series. They carried other imports, got Dexter Gordon's "Steeplechase" recordings, from a small but very high quality Danish label. Maybe not my "audiophile" peak, certainly my Vinyl peak.
 
Last edited:

captain paranoia

Active Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2018
Messages
293
Likes
218
Someone is claiming that they listen to every pressing they get their hands on?

I call bullshit. Far too labour and time intensive.
 

Robin L

Master Contributor
Joined
Sep 2, 2019
Messages
5,211
Likes
7,589
Location
1 mile east of Sleater Kinney Rd
Someone is claiming that they listen to every pressing they get their hands on?

I call bullshit. Far too labour and time intensive.
I dunno . . . a $2000 copy of "Rumors"? Labor intensive? Yeah, so's gold digging. As long as someone's willing to pay . . .

Ron Penndorf would audition every record he intended to auction. He was an honest broker. Certain stamper numbers of the RCA Living Stereo Classical series would go for $300 a pop at the time, he cleaned up on that. Ron Penndorf was big in Japan 'round about 1985. Had a nice, clean, "analytical" stereo whose centerpiece was a well-tweaked Rega [3 or so, as I recall]. One of the good guys. Got a number of really great Jazz records from him at reasonable prices. I remember him driving me around Berkeley, popping this into his car stereo:

 
Last edited:

watchnerd

Grand Contributor
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Messages
12,449
Likes
10,408
Location
Seattle Area, USA
Just ran across this site:

https://www.better-records.com/gdept.aspx?dept_id=14-015-034

These guys stockpile, clean and play dozens of copies of all the big records and sell the ones they think sound the best for big dough-- for instance, $250 for a copy of the 2nd BS&T record, which is in the dollar bin everywhere else.

Since a record is a unique physical object, there are obviously differences from one to the nex,t. It makes sense to me that a first pressing that was made when the plates were brand new would sound cleaner, maybe. And I am sure there are differences in mastering runs, batches of materials, etc. But these guys have a tiered system with all this lingo, etc.-- sounds like there could be a high marketing wizard quotient involved here.

Folks who are into this scene swear that they can play fourteen copies of 'Katy Lied' and then the fifteenth will just have this sound from another world.
So you get pressings with a certain number scratched into the dead wax going for $1000, etc.

Has anyone here ever really gotten into this and heard/not heard the difference?

I haven't used that service, no.

I do have albums where I have multiple copies of the same thing: original vs reissue, mono vs stereo, different masterings, etc.

Even leaving aside remasterings, yes, reissues manufactured at different places, at different times (e.g. 1960s Prestige jazz original pressing vs 1980s OJC reissue) can sound different, as can issues made in different countries.

Having preferences for 'better' versions and collectors who are willing to pay more for them has been going for decades (e.g. people who want Columbia 6 Eye copies).

It's not really any different than paying big bucks for certain vintages of wine.
 

Robin L

Master Contributor
Joined
Sep 2, 2019
Messages
5,211
Likes
7,589
Location
1 mile east of Sleater Kinney Rd
True, but also irrelevant.

CDs are not substitutable goods for LPs in the eyes of record collectors.
And there's "analogously" collectible CDs as well, with related signifiers.
 

anmpr1

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
3,722
Likes
6,406
Someone is claiming that they listen to every pressing they get their hands on?

I call bullshit. Far too labour and time intensive.
Like I've said before, you know you have too many records when you are thumbing through the stack and find something you didn't even know you had. You think, "I should listen to this." But then you put it back in the stack and play something else. I've done that plenty of times.
 

Robin L

Master Contributor
Joined
Sep 2, 2019
Messages
5,211
Likes
7,589
Location
1 mile east of Sleater Kinney Rd
Like I've said before, you know you have too many records when you are thumbing through the stack and find something you didn't even know you had. You think, "I should listen to this." But then you put it back in the stack and play something else. I've done that plenty of times.
"Where the hell did all these Wayne Newton records come from?"
 

watchnerd

Grand Contributor
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Messages
12,449
Likes
10,408
Location
Seattle Area, USA
When I decided to try vinyl again after abandoning it (before vinyl became "a thing" again), I went to Goodwill in Pleasanton. I bought an old Dual turntable with a cheap cartridge and three records for a grand total of fifty-ish dollars. The records were 25 cents apiece. One was a Bonnie Raitt record, one was Quicksilver Messenger Service 'Happy Trails', and one was 'Waltz for Debbie'.

The Quicksilver album had a marijuana seed scorched into the plastic around the label and sounded like frying bacon it was so scratched up, but I loved it for some perverse reason. I didn't figure out for years that the 'Waltz for Debbie' was an audiophile icon. They re-issue 15 ips tapes for hundreds of dollars of 'Waltz for Debbie' now and the audiophiles lap them up. The tapes I have heard don't even sound as good to me as the old thrift record.

That has to add value. I'd try to eBay that as a collectible just to see how high it would go.
 

Frank Dernie

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 24, 2016
Messages
6,445
Likes
15,780
Location
Oxfordshire
Like I've said before, you know you have too many records when you are thumbing through the stack and find something you didn't even know you had. You think, "I should listen to this." But then you put it back in the stack and play something else. I've done that plenty of times.
Worse, buying a recording that interests you only to find when you file it that you already own it. I have done that several times too :( mainly used CDs though.
 

Frank Dernie

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 24, 2016
Messages
6,445
Likes
15,780
Location
Oxfordshire
There is a chap who goes by the tag Bonzo on forums.
He is a big fan of the Tune Audio Anima horn speakers I own and asked if he could come over and play some of his discs on them. I am retired and have plenty of spare time so I said fine.
He brought lots of CDs and had a similar taste to mine so it was enjoyable.
Some time later he had decided LPs were better than CDs and asked if he could come and listen to some of my LPs on my Goldmund Reference TT, fine again.
Next he had got really into it and had been looking for highly rated recordings (he found copies of quite a few of the ones of mine he liked too) and asked if he could come and listen to them here, which was again fine.
One of the records he had bought happened to be one that I had had for over 40 years and he was interested to examine the label and found ine was the same super highly regarded pressing he had tracked down.
We compared the two and mine was definitely better sounding than his. This highlights one of the problem of buying second hand. Whilst the surface may be pristine the groove walls themselves may be worn, perhaps played on a record changer with modest cartridge back then when it was music to listen to before it was a collectors item.
He left soon afterwards. I haven't heard from him since but whether that is because of his disappointment in his LP (it wasn't that much worse than mine) or the fact I kept insisting that CD sounded better to me, I am not sure.
I enjoyed his visits, he is a true music lover, but I am not in agreement with most of what he says about hifi equipment.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom