Snake oil and the differences between LP pressings?

[Blumlein 88]

B: Don't talk smack about Tom Jones:

OH NO!

I remember seeing this on the Tom Jones show. My Mother always watched it, and I watched it because they had lots of good stuff on it. We had a black and white TV so never saw this in color before now.

Here are the two together. With Billy Preston. Sorry about the poor video quality.

 

[Phorize]

B: Don't talk smack about Tom Jones:

Recall seeing Tom at at the Glastonbury festival in the early 90s. He was a surprise act brought in to replace Morrissey. Did a set of Prince material wearing what I think was a purple leather jump suit. Tore the roof off the sucka.

 

[digicidal]

Recall seeing Tom at at the Glastonbury festival in the early 90s. He was a surprise act brought in to replace Morrissey. Did a set of Prince material wearing what I think was a purple leather jump suit. Tore the roof off the sucka.

Although I love The Smiths (at least in a nostalgic sense) and have all his solo works too... IMO that was quite an upgrade to Morrissey. Guaranteed that Tom Jones performing Prince songs increased the energy level of the crowd a good 80-90% over Morrissey levels. He's better suited to a rainy afternoon with an abundance of alcohol and introspection than an outdoor music festival.

 

[Phorize]

Although I love The Smiths (at least in a nostalgic sense) and have all his solo works too... IMO that was quite an upgrade to Morrissey. Guaranteed that Tom Jones performing Prince songs increased the energy level of the crowd a good 80-90% over Morrissey levels. He's better suited to a rainy afternoon with an abundance of alcohol and introspection than an outdoor music festival.

On one hand it would have been nice to hear ‘Your arsenal’ performed, especially as it was arguably his solo peak and just before he became a massive twat. Notwithstanding that, I’m glad that it was Tom Jones. I saw Lou Reed at the same festival, a huge disappointment rivalled only by Dylan at Wembley in around 2008 or so.

 

[Phorize]

On one hand it would have been nice to hear ‘Your arsenal’ performed, especially as it was arguably his solo peak and just before he became a massive twat. Notwithstanding that, I’m glad that it was Tom Jones. I saw Lou Reed at the same festival, a huge disappointment rivalled only by Dylan at Wembley in around 2008 or so.

I should say that the old Wembley arena was probably the worst music venue on the planet.

 

[digicidal]

On one hand it would have been nice to hear ‘Your arsenal’ performed, especially as it was arguably his solo peak and just before he became a massive twat.

I'm pretty sure that happened long before his solo career... but you might have other impressions.

 

[Robin L]

I'm pretty sure that happened long before his solo career... but you might have other impressions.

Don't look at me.

 

[Robin L]

I had a friend, now passed, who was a collector, and often did have multiple stampings of a single LP. They did vary in quality for whatever reasons.

Me too.

If it's surface noise that concerns you, Japanese pressings are the best. Second best for surface noise are pressings from the Netherlands, they usually are well mastered too.

One of the weirdest alternate pressings was a Netherlands "Abbey Road", the best-mastered version of that LP I've heard as regards sound. Too bad there's a fade-out for "She's So Heavy" and the elimination of "Her Majesty".

 

[JoachimStrobel]

I do not want to state the obvious - but only a limited numbers of LP can be pressed with an inverted master. And only so many inverted masters can be made from a true master. Of course one can re-cut masters from the original tapes. But my understanding of economics tells me that there could very well be early pressings that are better than later ones. An Radio Station possibly received the early ones - and some clever MBA kid sells a couple of hundred late pressings at a discounted price ....

 

[Blumlein 88]

Me too.

If it's surface noise that concerns you, Japanese pressings are the best. Second best for surface noise are pressings from the Netherlands, they usually are well mastered too.

One of the weirdest alternate pressings was a Netherlands "Abbey Road", the best-mastered version of that LP I've heard as regards sound. Too bad there's a fade-out for "She's So Heavy" and the elimination of "Her Majesty".

Oh, I don't do the LP thing anymore. I've friends that still do. I do still have a copy of an MFSL Half speed master of "Abbey Road". Rice paper sleeves. I played it once and recorded it. I need to get it over to one of my friends and record it digitally.

Speaking of weird pressings, there was a market in Vietnam during the war for American GI's. They made these LPs smaller than normal LPs, and sold them to the US troops there. I'd run across some in a yard sale at one time.

 

[Robin L]

Oh, I don't do the LP thing anymore. I've friends that still do. I do still have a copy of an MFSL Half speed master of "Abbey Road". Rice paper sleeves. I played it once and recorded it. I need to get it over to one of my friends and record it digitally.

Speaking of weird pressings, there was a market in Vietnam during the war for American GI's. They made these LPs smaller than normal LPs, and sold them to the US troops there. I'd run across some in a yard sale at one time.

I don't either.

However, the OP of this thread concerns differences between LP pressings and the concept of "Hot Stampers".

 

[MRC01]

In a word, yes - LPs vary quite a bit in sound quality. Even different instances of the same pressing. I collected audiophile LPs for about 20 years. I had individually numbered small-batch white-label promotional pressings without liner notes, pressed on 200 gram vinyl, Japanese press, half-speed masters, 180-220 gram heavy vinyl, 45 RPM single sided, Audioquests, Cheskys, BMGs, MoFis, vintage RCA Victors, you name it. Most I bought in new / unplayed condition from dealers at HiFi shows, others were used in mint condition. I cleaned them with a Nitty Gritty 2.5 FI and played them on a high quality rig; Thorens turntable, Ortofon MC-30 Super II, with a DACT CT-100 phono amp powered by dual 12 V batteries, properly aligned and tuned, sitting on the floating wooden lid of a 200 # sandbox for vibration isolation. So I felt that I was hearing about as close to what the vinyl sounded like as one can get, with as little coloration as possible. I've posted an audio clip or two from them here you can find if you search.

A few were really special, like the MoFi 200 gram Muddy Waters Folk Singer. Or a limited issue half-speed 200 gram pressing of Dizzy Gillespie's Big 4 from Fantasy. A white-label promotional Telefunken of Ludwig Streicher playing bass-piano duets, half-speed on 200 gram vinyl. And some of the Audioquests had fantastic sound.

Different pressings were different like night & day, not even close. For some of the LPs, I had several versions of the same pressing. These were closer in sound quality, but still different enough to very easily tell them apart. Overall, the variance in sound quality with LPs is quite wide, or conversely put, the quality control quite poor.

All that said, the site you mention seems overkill to me. But that's just my opinion. It's a free country and one man's trash is another man's treasure. When I sold all that vinyl on eBay, I was happy to discover people willing to pay several hundred bucks for a single record, if it were something special and pristine. I certainly wasn't cheating them out of anything. They were 100% happy customers. There definitely is a difference in sound. How much it matters is every person's opinion.

All that said, you're better off buying something that is tangibly different, like a half-speed master on heavy vinyl or Japanese press edition -- compared to a "hot stamper" which might be the same plain old record that some random guy thinks sounds better than the other 3 in the rack.

 

[anmpr1]

Please think of the children. Don't show Humperdinck in public like that.

Sorry, if I offend Humperdinck fans. I never saw the attraction of this artist. Though that looks like a kids story telling record. He would have been great for that.

An 1890 operetta based on the Grimm tale. Humperdinck wrote it after producing Parsifal at Bayreuth, during the time he was teaching at the Hoch Conservatory in Frankfurt. Richard Strauss conducted the first performance, but this record is Max Rudolf conducting the Met. I'm thinking you're thinking of someone else? Maybe the popular singer? Or did I miss something?

 

[Robin L]

An 1890 operetta based on the Grimm tale. Humperdinck wrote it after producing Parsifal at Bayreuth, during the time he was teaching at the Hoch Conservatory in Frankfurt. Richard Strauss conducted the first performance, but this record is Max Rudolf conducting the Met. I'm thinking you're thinking of someone else? Maybe the popular singer? Or did I miss something?

And then there's Gilbert O'Sullivan . . .

 

[levimax]

Just ran across this site:

https://www.better-records.com/gdept.aspx?dept_id=14-015-034

These guys stockpile, clean and play dozens of copies of all the big records and sell the ones they think sound the best for big dough-- for instance, $250 for a copy of the 2nd BS&T record, which is in the dollar bin everywhere else.

Since a record is a unique physical object, there are obviously differences from one to the nex,t. It makes sense to me that a first pressing that was made when the plates were brand new would sound cleaner, maybe. And I am sure there are differences in mastering runs, batches of materials, etc. But these guys have a tiered system with all this lingo, etc.-- sounds like there could be a high marketing wizard quotient involved here.

Folks who are into this scene swear that they can play fourteen copies of 'Katy Lied' and then the fifteenth will just have this sound from another world.
So you get pressings with a certain number scratched into the dead wax going for $1000, etc.

Has anyone here ever really gotten into this and heard/not heard the difference?

I have been collecting "First / Original" pressings of some of my favorite old classic rock albums for years now and I do have have multiple copies of some of them. I would say there is "some" truth to original/ first pressings sounding better but not always and there is certainly a lot of "snake oil" claims around the internet. While using "fresh" master tapes can only be a positive I think the main reason they sometimes sound better is that the first pressings were usually mastered by a "famous mastering engineer" and they actually signed the original masters (in the dead wax). Later pressing are mastered by "junior engineers". With first pressing you also often get embossed covers, full color lyric sheets/ sleeves, and posters. I try to be objective and do needle drops of different pressings and ABX them against each other and against various CD versions. I can often successfully ABX different version but the differences tend to subtle. In my experience it is possible to find some ABX able "magic" in first pressing of some older classic rock music, while subtle the differences are real and make more of a difference than any DAC (or even amp) that I have heard can make. On the other hand there are no guarantees and many used records sound awful. For me collecting first pressing it is just a fun bonus part of being a recorded music enthusiast.

 

[Robin L]

I have been collecting "First / Original" pressings of some of my favorite old classic rock albums for years now and I do have have multiple copies of some of them. I would say there is "some" truth to original/ first pressings sounding better but not always and there is certainly a lot of "snake oil" claims around the internet. While using "fresh" master tapes can only be a positive I think the main reason they sometimes sound better is that the first pressings were usually mastered by a "famous mastering engineer" and they actually signed the original masters (in the dead wax). Later pressing are mastered by "junior engineers". With first pressing you also often get embossed covers, full color lyric sheets/ sleeves, and posters. I try to be objective and do needle drops of different pressings and ABX them against each other and against various CD versions. I can often successfully ABX different version but the differences tend to subtle. In my experience it is possible to find some ABX able "magic" in first pressing of some older classic rock music, while subtle the differences are real and make more of a difference than any DAC (or even amp) that I have heard can make. On the other hand there are no guarantees and many used records sound awful. For me collecting first pressing it is just a fun bonus part of being a recorded music enthusiast.

Remember as well that the artists on the recordings are going to be involved with the initial release, not so much with re-issues [unless their name is Jimmy Page] so whoever is responsible for new mastering might not be aware of certain nuances the musicians want to retain, like that monster bass that makes cartridges jump out of the groove. Usually, remasters tend to be brighter than originals.

 

[anmpr1]

Record collecting is a mixed bag. There are folks who overlook the sonic problems with the format (and often the overall recording--a bad recording will sound bad regardless of format), and just want to hear the performance.

Then there are people who just collect anything and everything. I used to do that. Just collect. I started out collecting with a friend who now has so many records that he turned it in to a storefront. It's his living. Anecdote: I once asked him what he listens to when he goes home. He replied that when he goes home he just wants silence. He doesn't want to hear anything, because when he is in his store something is always playing!

Now I have digital reissues of important performances (such as the '50s Furtwangler material--I'm not really a rock 'n roller) which sounds as good as it's ever going to get. So I don't bother buying LPs much, anymore. Maybe occasionally I'll pick up an 'audiophile' pressing of some jazz record or two or three. I keep the records I have from years of buying, more from nostalgia than anything. I enjoy them as much as ever, for the performances. And as a reminder of a more simple, earlier time: a la recherche du temps perdu...

 

[Robin L]

as a reminder of a more simple, earlier time: a la recherche du temps perdu...

. . . I grab a Donsuemore Madeline.

[Though, as Alison Bechdel points out in "Fun Home", the novel's time isn't merely lost, it's wasted].

Seriously, The Prisoner and the Fugitive should've been boiled down to one smallish volume.

Gave up on LPs altogether, appears I am one of those folks distracted by off-center pressings, and they're all off-center, to a greater or lesser degree.

[Ahem!].

Put more energy into playing music than playing recordings these days.

Still have a fair amount of Furtwängler on CDs and Lossless files.

 

[Daverz]

I don't know how it is now, but back in the day many radio station pressings were at best average. I say that, because I owned boxes, and still have a lot of them.

I used to make regular trips to Los Angeles to shop for records and always came away with lots of promotional copies because of the record companies that was based there. Promotional copies are nothing special in my experience.

 

[cjfrbw]

When I decided to try vinyl again after abandoning it (before vinyl became "a thing" again), I went to Goodwill in Pleasanton. I bought an old Dual turntable with a cheap cartridge and three records for a grand total of fifty-ish dollars. The records were 25 cents apiece. One was a Bonnie Raitt record, one was Quicksilver Messenger Service 'Happy Trails', and one was 'Waltz for Debbie'.

The Quicksilver album had a marijuana seed scorched into the plastic around the label and sounded like frying bacon it was so scratched up, but I loved it for some perverse reason. I didn't figure out for years that the 'Waltz for Debbie' was an audiophile icon. They re-issue 15 ips tapes for hundreds of dollars of 'Waltz for Debbie' now and the audiophiles lap them up. The tapes I have heard don't even sound as good to me as the old thrift record.