Snake oil and the differences between LP pressings?

[Blake Klondike]

Just ran across this site:

https://www.better-records.com/gdept.aspx?dept_id=14-015-034

These guys stockpile, clean and play dozens of copies of all the big records and sell the ones they think sound the best for big dough-- for instance, $250 for a copy of the 2nd BS&T record, which is in the dollar bin everywhere else.

Since a record is a unique physical object, there are obviously differences from one to the nex,t. It makes sense to me that a first pressing that was made when the plates were brand new would sound cleaner, maybe. And I am sure there are differences in mastering runs, batches of materials, etc. But these guys have a tiered system with all this lingo, etc.-- sounds like there could be a high marketing wizard quotient involved here.

Folks who are into this scene swear that they can play fourteen copies of 'Katy Lied' and then the fifteenth will just have this sound from another world.
So you get pressings with a certain number scratched into the dead wax going for $1000, etc.

Has anyone here ever really gotten into this and heard/not heard the difference?

 

[pozz]

Differences in pressing quality are mostly to do with the amount of surface noise as I've experienced them.

I've gone out of my way to get a good quality record, but the stuff I like is fairly obscure electronic music. Only a few pressings at most (each usually accompanied by a remaster) so nothing to really get wild about and any differences tend to be pretty clear.

The above is a terrible scam.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I don't know about those guys. But there are sometimes differences in pressings. Of course what you don't really know is whether you are hearing that or differences in what kind of gear was used on a record in the past. Was it a cheap phonograph with a nickel taped to the cartridge or a nice rig causing little wear. Even though there are differences in various runs of LPs or which factory they came from.

What I did learn was if you find classical music you like in those boxed record sets it usually is a good deal 2nd hand. Most of the time all the wear is on side one disc one. Most of the time the others looked unplayed.

I had a friend, now passed, who was a collector, and often did have multiple stampings of a single LP. They did vary in quality for whatever reasons.

 

[Robin L]

Your best bet is usually a white label promotional copy, the audio equivalent of a first edition. These are the earliest pressings, intended for radio play.

 

[Blake Klondike]

I have to imagine that the person who spends $1000 for one of 2.5 million copies of "Rumors" is going to be heavily invested in the idea of it sounding much better too.

 

[beefkabob]

And no matter how you slice it, it will still have less fidelity than a CD.

 

[anmpr1]

Your best bet is usually a white label promotional copy, the audio equivalent of a first edition. These are the earliest pressings, intended for radio play.

I don't know how it is now, but back in the day many radio station pressings were at best average. I say that, because I owned boxes, and still have a lot of them.

True story:

A) As a teenager, a neighbor's sister was dating a C&W DJ. The station's playlist was limited to Top 40 Country, and he'd bring the girl's brother boxes and boxes of 'promotional, not for sale' records that the station couldn't use. A lot of them were rock records, or even country-ish records not fitting the station's format--like Jerry Jeff Walker or John Loudermilk. 45s, LPs, and even EPs. They all had the usual pops and clicks.

B) A local college radio station went digital, changing their format from classical to whatever college kids listen to. One Sunday they gave away their record collection--I think they sold records for a quarter a piece, or something. You just showed up and whatever you could carry you carried. I took boxes of classical/opera home. Some were not even opened. Most had been played once (the albums contained a play sheet listing the date/time of the broadcast, along with a synopsis that the student DJ was told to read. Maybe they had to do that to keep track of royalties?). Anyhow, I could tell no difference pop and click-wise between those and what I typically bought retail... other than the cover often had a sticker on it with the timings, and stating the record was not for sale. [FWIW, I checked their gear, and they were using Technics SL-1200 MK2 with Stanton cartridge--probably a 500, but I couldn't get that close to tell.]

Generally, records today are better quality than was the case during mass-market times. At least that is my experience. If demand for records actually increases due to a legitimate 'vinyl revival' (which I don't think will ever happen, but who knows?) then I would expect quality to decline as manufacturers cut corners to pump out product.

 

[pozz]

Your best bet is usually a white label promotional copy, the audio equivalent of a first edition. These are the earliest pressings, intended for radio play.

One thing to keep in mind, at least with dance music, is that many white labels are dubplates (acetate pressings) and will keep up quality for a few dozen playthroughs, tops.

 

[cjfrbw]

I spent years poking through thrift shop bins and got quite a few nice records when they weren't 'popular'. That's all over because the vinyl is all picked over now.

However, I have more than I will reasonably ever listen to.

You have a hobby. People communicate, then start competing, then start establishing anointed objects and talismans, then a market arises over special anointed sacred objects with extravagant mythologies which obtain ridiculous prices. It's genetic.

If you don't gush over 'Kind of Blue' in an audiophile setting, a hush of raw horror settles over the room and you are branded a heretic. You gotta flow with the established conformities, especially to do the Grey Poupon country club inclusion thing.

Looking at the little scratches, numerals and identifiers on records and establishing rank is an OC disorder ritual. There is, however, quite a bit of actual interesting history there concerning some stuff.

Over at WBF, nobody even helps people with simple technical questions, but if somebody buys an expensive tape or turntable, the threads will go on for days.

 

[JJB70]

Indeed, it is a characteristic of most hobbies. I am a model train enthusiast and recreational cyclist and both of those interests attract all of the above behaviour.

 

[anmpr1]

Your best bet is usually a white label promotional copy, the audio equivalent of a first edition. These are the earliest pressings, intended for radio play.

This is an example of what I was talking about. Maybe it's not a 'white label'. You'd see something like this on a lot of radio station record covers. The actual records looked like retail versions, but were sent to radio stations.

PS: this example shown is pressed in 'changer' format, with the sides ordered so you can play it on a stacked record changer. So it wasn't something made specially for radio stations, which had no need for that.

 

[pozz]

I spent years poking through thrift shop bins and got quite a few nice records when they weren't 'popular'. That's all over because the vinyl is all picked over now.

Most sellers I visit know everything about the price of their stock, if not the music. Same thing at shows.

Discogs in particular has really helped with cataloging and research, but has also definitely driven prices up.

 

[Robin L]

I don't know how it is now, but back in the day many radio station pressings were at best average. I say that, because I owned boxes, and still have a lot of them.

True story:

A) As a teenager, a neighbor's sister was dating a C&W DJ. The station's playlist was limited to Top 40 Country, and he'd bring the girl's brother boxes and boxes of 'promotional, not for sale' records that the station couldn't use. A lot of them were rock records, or even country-ish records not fitting the station's format--like Jerry Jeff Walker or John Loudermilk. 45s, LPs, and even EPs. They all had the usual pops and clicks.

B) A local college radio station went digital, changing their format from classical to whatever college kids listen to. One Sunday they gave away their record collection--I think they sold records for a quarter a piece, or something. You just showed up and whatever you could carry you carried. I took boxes of classical/opera home. Some were not even opened. Most had been played once (the albums contained a play sheet listing the date/time of the broadcast, along with a synopsis that the student DJ was told to read. Maybe they had to do that to keep track of royalties?). Anyhow, I could tell no difference pop and click-wise between those and what I typically bought retail... other than the cover often had a sticker on it with the timings, and stating the record was not for sale. [FWIW, I checked their gear, and they were using Technics SL-1200 MK2 with Stanton cartridge--probably a 500, but I couldn't get that close to tell.]

Generally, records today are better quality than was the case during mass-market times. At least that is my experience. If demand for records actually increases due to a legitimate 'vinyl revival' (which I don't think will ever happen, but who knows?) then I would expect quality to decline as manufacturers cut corners to pump out product.

I've had a number of favorite LPs that were white label promo. Certain favorite titles. I lived/worked through peak Vinyl, at Wherehouse & Ray Avery's Rare Records. Back in the mid-late seventies, there were shops like the enormous Vogue Records in Westwood and Pasadena's "Indy before there was Indie" favorite, Poo Bah Records. I was a hog for vinyl at the time, worked at Wherehouse, then went shopping at Vogue, Poo Bah's and Tower. I'd get promos from work and trade them in at Poo Bah's for something different. Later, I watched CDs take over when I worked at Tower, Berkeley. Soon after, I worked at The Musical Offering, CDs, cafe and a gathering place for musicians.

I was using electrostatic headphones at the time. What you say about pressing quality as regards tics & pops is true. However, the quality of the upper registers is usually the first thing to go out of alignment with LPs, with re-pressings from a number of labels suffering from jacked-up treble. The best surfaces back then were Japanese. Unfortunately, for some odd reason, they had the most jacked-up treble of all. European pressings of European music turned out fine, European pressings of Music from the USA had wonky EQ. And, thanks to various fluctuations in the price of crude oil, USA LPs were typically bad. In any case, the white label copy of Joan Armatrading's eponymous LP was one of the best sounding LPs I've owned. I also found the Creedence Clearwater white label promos exceptional. As regards that odyssey LP, all odyssey LPs are screwed up one way or another, definitely a case where finding something closer to the original is a very good idea.

Cheers.

 

[Robin L]

This is an example of what I was talking about. Maybe it's not a 'white label'. You'd see something like this on a lot of radio station record covers. The actual records looked like retail versions, but were sent to radio stations.

PS: this example shown is pressed in 'changer' format, with the sides ordered so you can play it on a stacked record changer. So it wasn't something made specially for radio stations, which had no need for that.

View attachment 33640

Yeah, odyssey records were not going to sell anyway. When I worked at the Musical Offering, the promos we got were basically whatever we wanted, as Joseph Spencer had accounts with all the biggies and didn't have to deal with one-stops. Both of us were doing radio, so if we asked for it, we got it.

I had a very early promo of Glenn Gould's first recording of the Goldberg Variations. All reissues have elevated treble.

 

[Robin L]

One thing to keep in mind, at least with dance music, is that many white labels are dubplates (acetate pressings) and will keep up quality for a few dozen playthroughs, tops.

 

[Blumlein 88]

This is an example of what I was talking about. Maybe it's not a 'white label'. You'd see something like this on a lot of radio station record covers. The actual records looked like retail versions, but were sent to radio stations.

PS: this example shown is pressed in 'changer' format, with the sides ordered so you can play it on a stacked record changer. So it wasn't something made specially for radio stations, which had no need for that.

View attachment 33640

Please think of the children. Don't show Humperdinck in public like that.

Sorry, if I offend Humperdinck fans. I never saw the attraction of this artist. Though that looks like a kids story telling record. He would have been great for that.

 

[Robin L]

Please think of the children. Don't show Humperdinck in public like that.

Sorry, if I offend Humperdinck fans. I never saw the attraction of this artist. Though that looks like a kids story telling record. He would have been great for that.

Let's face it, Gordon Mills was some kind of a man... What does it matter what you say about people?

 

[Blumlein 88]

Let's face it, Gordon Mills was some kind of a man... What does it matter what you say about people?

Yes, you mention Gordon Mills. Wasn't he the manager for Tom Jones? Another singer who has sold millions and just never was my cup of tea.

 

[Robin L]

Yes, you mention Gordon Mills. Wasn't he the manager for Tom Jones? Another singer who has sold millions and just never was my cup of tea.

A: odyssey records was a budget classical label, mostly reissues:

 

[Robin L]

B: Don't talk smack about Tom Jones: