SMSL VMV D3 Review (R2R DAC)

[BDWoody]

You do not know how to measure the time errors

We aren't doing this in yet another thread.

 

[Spocko]

Seems rather disingenuous to buy based on measured performance (even if unconventional measures that are irrelevant for competently-engineered DACs) in this segment. People buy based on their intuition and feelings, they see which DAC has the better backstory.

Or which DAC just looks better on the shelf - above a certain price/performance threshold, I think the premium consumer just wants something they can enjoy owning as a piece of audio jewelry, and there's nothing wrong with that at all. High quality audio has been democratized to the point that whether you have the $500 Topping or $5,000 Holo, both sound great, but what distinguishes them are all the non-audio qualities that many find worth the premium.

It's just annoying that premium DAC owners find they must defend their purchase with subjective arguments about sound quality: it's OK if it doesn't sound "better" than something that's 1/10 the price! Enjoy it for all of its other features, whether thoughtful casing, OLED display or volume knob. It doesn't always have to be about sound quality. How many Bentley owners argue with Camry owners that their Bentley is "the better buy"?? But here we are and this is exactly where we find ourselves every time.

 

[ousi]

It's just packing, when the .FLAC file is loaded it's just the same as the .WAV, both unpack to the same WAVE/PCM. It'd be absurd if a lossless codec would not, in fact.

Well, I guess people don't read the docs anymore. FLAC is not just packing like DEFLATE (think ZIP), it has a whole other things going on. ZIP can usually reduce WAV by 20% only, unlike FLAC which has a much higher compression level. Again, lossless is defined as "able to reproduce the same content as the original", doesn't mean that it cannot store the stuff in a very different form.

If one ever tried playing back FLAC in the old days, it takes up quite a bit of CPU time to decode.

https://xiph.org/flac/documentation_format_overview.html

 

[Veri]

Well, I guess people don't read the docs anymore. FLAC is not just packing like DEFLATE (think ZIP), it has a whole other things going on. ZIP can usually reduce WAV by 20% only, unlike FLAC which has a much higher compression level. Again, lossless is defined as "able to reproduce the same content as the original", doesn't mean that it cannot store the stuff in a very different form.

If one ever tried playing back FLAC in the old days, it takes up quite a bit of CPU time to decode.

https://xiph.org/flac/documentation_format_overview.html

It is lossless compression in any case, if you saw the post that I quoted that is the point I wanted to make. "Packing" wasn't the best choice of word. And seriously, you're gonna have to go ages back in processing power for FLAC to take "quite a bit" of CPU to decode....

 

[ousi]

It is lossless compression in any case, if you saw the post that I quoted that is the point I wanted to make. "Packing" wasn't the best choice of word. And seriously, you're gonna have to go ages back in processing power for FLAC to take "quite a bit" of CPU to decode....

I see what you mean now. The word packing usually means a normal general purpose compression at least in my opinion. FLAC has prediction models to achieve the high compression rate.

The first time I tried playing FLAC was back in 2007 and I was using a Pentium E2140 CPU. Kinda reminds me how I first played MP3 files on an Am5x86. FLAC was quite resource intensive in those age. Of course it won’t even break a sweat on my current PC with a 75F3. Just want to put into perspective that it is not “just a wav” where a 80386 could play with a Sound Blaster 16

 

[Veri]

I see what you mean now. The word packing usually means a normal general purpose compression at least in my opinion. FLAC has prediction models to achieve the high compression rate.

The first time I tried playing FLAC was back in 2007 and I was using a Pentium E2140 CPU. Kinda reminds me how I first played MP3 files on an Am5x86. FLAC was quite resource intensive in those age. Of course it won’t even break a sweat on my current PC with a 75F3. Just want to put into perspective that it is not “just a wav” where a 80386 could play with a Sound Blaster 16

Hehe, sure but that's 15 years ago a small RPi w/ ARM processor can do flac decoding and a whole bunch of processing nowadays.

 

[Noendgamehere]

Thank you for this review, excellent as usual, Amir!

That all (well implemented) R2R DACs are so inferior to (well implemented) Delta-Sigma DACs, and that yet audiophools keep raving and wasting a lot of money for them, shows how much education and reaching out would need to be done to liberate them from the lies of those numerous fake reviewers paid by companies for producing deceiving, praiseful reviews about R2R DACs (or about tube devices; at least the latter have a nice glow and can be used to heat up the house if one doesn't mind wasting a huge amount of electricity...).

Even a company which I respect, Hifiman, uses a R2R DAC for its bluemini bluetooth modules (attaching via TRRS to some of their headphones like the Deva), and use the presence of a R2R DAC as a marketing argument... This shows how these misconceptions, myths, are well spread among audio customers. Luckily, ASR keeps growing...

I have yet to hear a Delta Sigma DAC that sounds as good as my R2R DAC. Strong words and tone as always from the ASR members. You are the ONLY people who have figured out audio. My Triode Tube Amp with a hand wound copper transformer being fed my R2R DAC sounds absolutely sublime. But, my ears must not work since I am an Audiophool! This website is for crazy people!

Amir, if you don't like my tone, DELETE ME! I am all for differing opinions and for a good argument. But, y'all don't want to debate. Just offend! I don't even know why I logged in.

 

[MarkWinston]

I have yet to hear a Delta Sigma DAC that sounds as good as my R2R DAC. Strong words and tone as always from the ASR members. You are the ONLY people who have figured out audio. My Triode Tube Amp with a hand wound copper transformer being fed my R2R DAC sounds absolutely sublime. But, my ears must not work since I am an Audiophool! This website is for crazy people!

Amir, if you don't like my tone, DELETE ME! I am all for differing opinions and for a good argument. But, y'all don't want to debate. Just offend! I don't even know why I logged in.

Stick with your inferior tubes and r2r, no ones forcing you to convert to hi fidelity. You are here at your own will, leave the same. Its all good if you want to go the MY fidelity path, more power to you, but dont come in here and mix it up with hi fidelity.

 

[Mnyb]

I have yet to hear a Delta Sigma DAC that sounds as good as my R2R DAC. Strong words and tone as always from the ASR members. You are the ONLY people who have figured out audio. My Triode Tube Amp with a hand wound copper transformer being fed my R2R DAC sounds absolutely sublime. But, my ears must not work since I am an Audiophool! This website is for crazy people!

Amir, if you don't like my tone, DELETE ME! I am all for differing opinions and for a good argument. But, y'all don't want to debate. Just offend! I don't even know why I logged in.

You can simple be wrong it’s allowed it’s ok we all do that all the time , the world is to complicated to have a 100% control..

Relativism ? Not a good idea in a domain such as electrical engineering with provable facts ? Some times there are no room for differing opinions if the opinion is simply wrong ?

I don’t give much for the ideas that every opinion has equal value . You sure have the rigth to have them . But for here someone will challenge you to think differently if your wrong, simple as that.

Give this site a change . It’s imho a safe haven against all the craziness that is rife in our hobby. Admittedly not perfect at all . And the site sometimes get swamped with subjectivist cranks that spreads the same fud as on other sites and or simply register to tell us how wrong we are ? Or only rants in single tread because his pet product did not get a rave review. It sometimes so noisy that you can’t find the real expertise that exist on the forum. But there literally is nowhere else to go for a good advice on audio .

 

[Noendgamehere]

Stick with your inferior tubes and r2r, no ones forcing you to convert to hi fidelity. You are here at your own will, leave the same. Its all good if you want to go the MY fidelity path, more power to you, but dont come in here and mix it up with hi fidelity.

The arrogance on this site belies the whole point of this hobby. I came to read the only review currently online for the D3, and found what I find every time I come into this site. A bunch of stuffy people who know better than everyone else because of a measurement. I will stick with my tubes and R2R and listen to music and you can stick to a measurement to tell you whether or not something is good.

Hi fidelity? That is funniest part. Next you will tell me I need a Topping DAC and Amp and I will have hi-fidelity. I’d put my system up against just about anyone for musicality and fidelity. My system renders the entire sound scape, details, balance, PRAT, and I have done it without looking at a single measurement. You have no clue what my system consists of or how I have it put together. But I am automatically an audiophool for not following the cult of ASR. We have ears for a reason. How do you tell if food tastes good? Do you use your own palate or ask someone to measure it for you? Music is about engaging in the senses.

I don’t care about this philosophy for determining if someone likes something or whether they think it is good. More power to you. I react to sheer arrogance that only your way is the right way. Below the dude makes the comment that is ok for me to be wrong. I don’t subscribe to cults. I joined and have participated in two threads for the exact same reason. Because you all act like a bunch of arrogant d****.

Amir, delete me! I hate this site as much you all hate me. I have asked before, now is the perfect time.

 

[Noendgamehere]

You can simple be wrong it’s allowed it’s ok we all do that all the time , the world is to complicated to have a 100% control..

Relativism ? Not a good idea in a domain such as electrical engineering with provable facts ? Some times there are no room for differing opinions if the opinion is simply wrong ?

I don’t give much for the ideas that every opinion has equal value . You sure have the rigth to have them . But for here someone will challenge you to think differently if your wrong, simple as that.

Give this site a change . It’s imho a safe haven against all the craziness that is rife in our hobby. Admittedly not perfect at all . And the site sometimes get swamped with subjectivist cranks that spreads the same fud as on other sites and or simply register to tell us how wrong we are ? Or only rants in single tread because his pet product did not get a rave review. It sometimes so noisy that you can’t find the real expertise that exist on the forum. But there literally is nowhere else to go for a good advice on audio .

I’m not looking to be right or in control. I am looking for honest discussion, respectful discussion. But, every time I come on here I read filth, and arrogance, and opinions that put people down who don’t believe what the people here believe. That isn’t discourse.

What makes someone wrong? Is making a blanket statement that someone is an audiophool if they like tubes and R2R wrong? Or is the person who uses them wrong? Who gets to decide right and wrong? Is it the Amir? Or just anyone who believes that a Delta Sigma DAC is right and anything else is wrong?

I am not ranting about a product. I am ranting about an idea. The idea that the people here know better than everyone else and they know this because of what? What makes their opinions right? What gives them the right to put people down?

I don’t subscribe to tons of sites. I like to read it all. But, when people put down a certain way of enjoying music as being a fool, I will always chime in. I don’t care about the D3, or any other product for that matter. Whatever makes someone happy is good by me. There are a million ways to set up a system that has hi fidelity. I happen to love tube amps. I happen to love the way my R2R DAC sounds with my tube amp. I happen to love my music server, cabling and power conditioning. I think the integrated whole I achieve with my system allows me to listen to my headphones at their peak. Good enough for me. Whether or not someone on here agrees makes no difference to me. This hobby is about enjoying music, not getting off on measurements.

I have heard many of the DACs this site claims to be close to perfect. Less than 5% are good enough for my system or for what I am trying to achieve with my music. That doesn’t mean they aren’t great for someone else. Unfortunately, the subtlety of this hobby gets completely lost here.

Let me be super clear, I came here on my own and will leave on my own. Delete me if you choose, or don’t.

 

[shal]

Amir, delete me! I hate this site as much you all hate me. I have asked before, now is the perfect time.

No hate for my part. I just see someone lost. Sad

 

[Noendgamehere]

No hate for my part. I just see someone lost. Sad

I am the farthest thing from lost. But I appreciate the condescending tone.

I am a lot of things. Lost and stupid aren’t among them.

 

[JayGilb]

I have yet to hear a Delta Sigma DAC that sounds as good as my R2R DAC. Strong words and tone as always from the ASR members. You are the ONLY people who have figured out audio. My Triode Tube Amp with a hand wound copper transformer being fed my R2R DAC sounds absolutely sublime. But, my ears must not work since I am an Audiophool! This website is for crazy people!

Can you explain what "sounds absolutely sublime" means ?

 

[Snoopy]

Can you explain what "sounds absolutely sublime" means ?

Probably close to CD Quality with lots of unnecessary distortion that colours the sound.

But at least it's hand made exclusive stuff.

 

[Veri]

The arrogance on this site belies the whole point of this hobby. I came to read the only review currently online for the D3, and found what I find every time I come into this site. A bunch of stuffy people who know better than everyone else because of a measurement. I will stick with my tubes and R2R and listen to music and you can stick to a measurement to tell you whether or not something is good.

Hi fidelity? That is funniest part. Next you will tell me I need a Topping DAC and Amp and I will have hi-fidelity. I’d put my system up against just about anyone for musicality and fidelity. My system renders the entire sound scape, details, balance, PRAT, and I have done it without looking at a single measurement. You have no clue what my system consists of or how I have it put together. But I am automatically an audiophool for not following the cult of ASR. We have ears for a reason. How do you tell if food tastes good? Do you use your own palate or ask someone to measure it for you? Music is about engaging in the senses.

I don’t care about this philosophy for determining if someone likes something or whether they think it is good. More power to you. I react to sheer arrogance that only your way is the right way. Below the dude makes the comment that is ok for me to be wrong. I don’t subscribe to cults. I joined and have participated in two threads for the exact same reason. Because you all act like a bunch of arrogant d****.

Amir, delete me! I hate this site as much you all hate me. I have asked before, now is the perfect time.

You lost me at "PRAT".

 

[Noendgamehere]

Can you explain what "sounds absolutely sublime" means ?

For me, sublime means that I can hear the entire soundstage, instruments exactly where they are supposed to be. Tonally accurate with beautiful timbre. Micro and Macro details. Enough air so that I can discern the space between the notes. Balance, pace, rhythm and timing are most important to me. I like the background quiet, I build my system to allow me to listen to my music as if I am sitting at the soundboard and can hear it all as if I am there. Holographic, which to me means that the music is engaging all of my senses. I by no means feel this is right, just right for me. I listen to headphones only and carefully select my headphones based on how they meld with my chain. If I change an amp, I might change a headphone to bring it back into balance. I don’t just listen to tubes. I have an amazing SS amp as well that brings the best out of my Code X. Is it the best headphone, probably not. But, in my system it gives me everything I could want and that is good enough.

I don’t have an issue with how people determine what is best for them. I have an issue with mocking and putting down those who like something contrary to what is recommended here. It almost always leads to serious negativity. I don’t own the VMV D3 and I never will. Just as I won’t own a D90 or a Burson Composer 3XP. They aren’t for me. I don’t particularly like Chord products either. I recognize that there are perfectly measured devices of which some I will like and others I won’t. I try to let me ears guide me. I am a chef and have spent a lifetime training my palate. The more I taste the more refined it becomes. The more I understand how taste, texture, ingredient sourcing and technique all play a part in a finished dish, the better my food becomes. I view music and the corresponding gear in a similar fashion. Listening is a skill, it is honed over time. We are constantly changing and so is the gear. The fun part is to synchronize to those changes and to continue learning and growing along the way. I put my avatar as Noendgamehere because I genuinely believe that end game doesn’t exist. The journey is the prize.

 

[Jimbob54]

For me, sublime means that I can hear the entire soundstage, instruments exactly where they are supposed to be. Tonally accurate with beautiful timbre. Micro and Macro details. Enough air so that I can discern the space between the notes. Balance, pace, rhythm and timing are most important to me. I like the background quiet, I build my system to allow me to listen to my music as if I am sitting at the soundboard and can hear it all as if I am there. Holographic, which to me means that the music is engaging all of my senses. I by no means feel this is right, just right for me. I listen to headphones only and carefully select my headphones based on how they meld with my chain. If I change an amp, I might change a headphone to bring it back into balance. I don’t just listen to tubes. I have an amazing SS amp as well that brings the best out of my Code X. Is it the best headphone, probably not. But, in my system it gives me everything I could want and that is good enough.

I don’t have an issue with how people determine what is best for them. I have an issue with mocking and putting down those who like something contrary to what is recommended here. It almost always leads to serious negativity. I don’t own the VMV D3 and I never will. Just as I won’t own a D90 or a Burson Composer 3XP. They aren’t for me. I don’t particularly like Chord products either. I recognize that there are perfectly measured devices of which some I will like and others I won’t. I try to let me ears guide me. I am a chef and have spent a lifetime training my palate. The more I taste the more refined it becomes. The more I understand how taste, texture, ingredient sourcing and technique all play a part in a finished dish, the better my food becomes. I view music and the corresponding gear in a similar fashion. Listening is a skill, it is honed over time. We are constantly changing and so is the gear. The fun part is to synchronize to those changes and to continue learning and growing along the way. I put my avatar as Noendgamehere because I genuinely believe that end game doesn’t exist. The journey is the prize.

I'm going out on a limb here and guessing you don't use Eq on your headphones?

 

[BDWoody]

Amir, delete me! I hate this site as much you all hate me. I have asked before, now is the perfect time.

He's likely a few hours behind, so I'll help you out here.
Have a special day.

 

[JayGilb]

For me, sublime means that I can hear the entire soundstage, instruments exactly where they are supposed to be. Tonally accurate with beautiful timbre. Micro and Macro details. Enough air so that I can discern the space between the notes.

Thanks. While I still have questions about the term "air", this is something that I can begin to understand.