SMSL VMV D3 Review (R2R DAC)

[welsh]

Interesting review. Some of the measurements are quite good. In particular, the linearity is pretty good, compared to dacs made a long time ago with this chip. The jitter test is great. The THD is not amazing, but each order is below the CD threshold.
Of course it doesn’t measure as well as the latest ds designs. However, for the time when they were designed for 16 bit CD playback, doesn’t this meet reasonable standards? I mainly listen to this format. If I was well heeled and nostalgic I would consider it. But I don’t need to, as I already have a Dac with an old chip like this. To most of you this dac doesn’t have any relevance in the market.
This is not trash. It’s someone trying to squeeze everything they can out of 20+yr old chip and making it useful. Its admirable. It’s engineering. It’s recycling as well.
So glad your measured this.

It is ‘admirable’ to recycle an old chip when you can do better for a fraction of this price? If I bought this and chucked it in the bin, would I get recycling points over a better-performing DAC?

 

[aj625]

It depends on the byte ordering (also called endianness), the last 16 bits might be significant bytes (little endian, as in the default sample format of RIFF WAV files). Clearly you are not aware of how bits and bytes are stored in computer files or represented in memory.

Have you read how FLAC do the compression? https://xiph.org/flac/format.html#prediction It has nothing to do with pattern of zeros. FLAC is not a normal file compression algorithm unlike ZIP will tally up and count how many repeating patterns are there in a block.

Still you haven't really answer the counter-example I raised about your "less detail" theory. How do you explain the telephone case?

I am not arguing about anything from you. My post was about a simple experiment which I have already done. No daw cuts the first significant bits. It always cuts last bits. And when you add back those bits, it always adds for last bits. Better you first do and then argue. There is no point in posting if you have not done this simple thing.

 

[aj625]

It depends on the byte ordering (also called endianness), the last 16 bits might be significant bytes (little endian, as in the default sample format of RIFF WAV files). Clearly you are not aware of how bits and bytes are stored in computer files or represented in memory.

Have you read how FLAC do the compression? https://xiph.org/flac/format.html#prediction It has nothing to do with pattern of zeros. FLAC is not a normal file compression algorithm unlike ZIP will tally up and count how many repeating patterns are there in a block.

Still you haven't really answer the counter-example I raised about your "less detail" theory. How do you explain the telephone case?

Wow wow, you didn't even tried the thing and teaching me about how flac compression works. First do what i said and open that 8bit file in daw and check wave form. Last 16bit by zeros drastically reduce the flac size not because anything you see in wave pattern but because of repeating zeros in last 16bits. Obviously wave size will be same.

 

[Lambda]

The difference is that you can get a better-performing DAC for a fraction of the price.

You don't seem to get the point...

Just because something better/ Cheaper exists does not make this thing worse.
Because a 20€ digital player/streamer is "better" and cheaper then every record player don't mean they are all worthless trash.

People still buy Mechanical watches. They still drive classic cars.

They even still make new high performance mechanical controlled carburetors.
Not Because anyone thinks they are "better" but because some people care about how something works and not only about the output.
Some like to "perfect" a certain technology of the past. For some it might be having "the best" naturally aspirated hemi v8.


In this case its really not like the DAC is "broken" and would sound so bad you could hear it from the kitchen.
It is more likely the average user can't hear any difference at all.

I personally would not uses or recommend this DAC at al but if money not an factor for you want an dac based on this specific chip...
This is maybe not the best option but it will also not Sound bad.

 

[Snoopy]

So if r2r DACs are so much worse why are some people still feeling like the soundstage is suddenly wider and deeper? It really makes no sense that they feel like that. But at the same time I didn't see that many posts where someone sold his r2r DAC in favour of a DS DAC.

 

[Veri]

So if r2r DACs are so much worse why are some people still feeling like the soundstage is suddenly wider and deeper? It really makes no sense that they feel like that. But at the same time I didn't see that many posts where someone sold his r2r DAC in favour of a DS DAC.

-"expensive must be better" bias
-it also looks nice in a hi-fi rack, I'm sure...
-I auditioned Holo Audio R2R DACs and I'm just carrying on with normal DS DAC, don't feel like I'm missing out...

 

[aj625]

You don't seem to get the point...

Just because something better/ Cheaper exists does not make this thing worse.
Because a 20€ digital player/streamer is "better" and cheaper then every record player don't mean they are all worthless trash.

People still buy Mechanical watches. They still drive classic cars.

They even still make new high performance mechanical controlled carburetors.
Not Because anyone thinks they are "better" but because some people care about how something works and not only about the output.
Some like to "perfect" a certain technology of the past. For some it might be having "the best" naturally aspirated hemi v8.


In this case its really not like the DAC is "broken" and would sound so bad you could hear it from the kitchen.
It is more likely the average user can't hear any difference at all.

I personally would not uses or recommend this DAC at al but if money not an factor for you want an dac based on this specific chip...
This is maybe not the best option but it will also not Sound bad.

Problem is that "hi fi" is not about a hobby like fountain pen collector or coin collection or vintage car collection. Some may like to have nostalgia about old gear but that is different than "hi fi". A normal hi fi lover would like to spend in upgrading the gear instead of collecting multiple items.

 

[aj625]

So if r2r DACs are so much worse why are some people still feeling like the soundstage is suddenly wider and deeper? It really makes no sense that they feel like that. But at the same time I didn't see that many posts where someone sold his r2r DAC in favour of a DS DAC.

Why would they admit if they sold their boutique R2R dac in favour of cheaper better ds dac.

 

[Spocko]

So if r2r DACs are so much worse why are some people still feeling like the soundstage is suddenly wider and deeper? It really makes no sense that they feel like that. But at the same time I didn't see that many posts where someone sold his r2r DAC in favour of a DS DAC.

Because subjective impressions like soundstage can easily be created via expectation bias - in other words, if I swapped out their beloved R2R DAC for a Topping without them knowing, they'd still proclaim amazing soundstage, etc. Thus, the need for double blind listening tests, or at least a blind test. You'll be shocked at the results and the indistinguishability between DACs.

For this reason, I favor DACs with features I need (Room correction, I/O, volume knob, etc.) and an intuitive user interface. Soundstage is 100% the interaction between your speakers (directivity), your room and your source (and DSP!) - the DAC should be nothing more than a neutral conduit between the digital source and the analog signal it produces. Any additions to that purpose is simply modern day tone controls to alter the source to your liking; there's nothing wrong with that mind you, as long as consumers understand they are changing the signal to make it sound more subjectively appealing and not because they are suddenly hearing "what the artist intended" because it's quite possible the artist (or more accurately, the mixing/mastering team) just screwed up and what you heard was just a bad mix and the R2R rolled off some of those peaky highs unlike the DS DAC which gave you the entire mix, warts and all.

 

[Lambda]

Some may like to have nostalgia about old gear but that is different than "hi fi".

So vinyl records are not Hi-fi or no longer hi-fi? because almost every digital audio layer is better in every respect?!

I swapped out their beloved R2R DAC for a Topping without them knowing, they'd still proclaim amazing soundstage, etc. Thus, the need for double blind listening tests, or at least a blind test. You'll be shocked at the results and the indistinguishability between DACs.

Sure. There is nothing Magical about this DAC.
But i guess there is also nothing terrible about this DAC and in realty Placebo is strong and people don’t listen Double blind.

So Chances are good they Actually enjoy listening to an R2R DAC even more ( only if they believe and know)

A view dB worse SINAD make no difference if they can't hear it. (and i don’t think you can)
This is why i cant say this is terribel over all.
It is terribel if you look at SINAD / $
By this Metric vinyl is insanity
There are cheaper and better options. but not every one cares about price the same way. and the existence of better DACs don't make this one worse.

This is why i would say it’s Not terrible or even fine if you only listen to CDs and don’t care about price at all.

 

[aj625]

So vinyl records are not Hi-fi or no longer hi-fi? because almost every digital audio layer is better in every respect?!


Sure. There is nothing Magical about this DAC.
But i guess there is also nothing terrible about this DAC and in realty Placebo is strong and people don’t listen Double blind.

So Chances are good they Actually enjoy listening to an R2R DAC even more ( only if they believe and know)

A view dB worse SINAD make no difference if they can't hear it. (and i don’t think you can)
This is why i cant say this is terribel over all.
It is terribel if you look at SINAD / $
By this Metric vinyl is insanity
There are cheaper and better options. but not every one cares about price the same way. and the existence of better DACs don't make this one worse.

This is why i would say it’s Not terrible or even fine if you only listen to CDs and don’t care about price at all.

As mentioned earlier vinyl of digital recordings is nothing but a scam.

 

[Xyrium]

Another old school ladder bites the dust. Kinda neat looking in it's segmented own way though.

 

[avoidwork]

Has anyone listened to the unit?
I've always been interested in implementations of 1704 dacs from a technical point of view. There are many interesting DIY projects around these DACs that I would have loved to dip my toe in. But, as they are unobtanium, lost interest (just assumed Audio-GD gobbled them all up).

i have; i bought it a day or two after it became available; have had it a month+ now. it sounds fantastic. sinad is a weird measurement to determine the value of something - it's literally impossible to guess how something sounds from it.

is it worth the price paid? hell no. tbh it's got a subtle sound difference from my delta sigma dacs, and it's not quite like my other r-2r dacs. i find it pairs exceptionally well with my gsx-mini, and k9 pro (rca input, can't find female xlr to 4.4mm cable so far).

do i regret it? hell no. i listen to it daily, and it has phenominal timbre*. really can't recommend it - you have to get it knowing what it is & isn't.

 

[Snoopy]

I can't really imagine spending 3000 bucks on a DAC with such old technology. Even if I had the money I would probably buy something else... Room treatment, Headphones ... Seems like such a waste of money considering what DS dacs are available for less than $1000.

 

[avoidwork]

I can't really imagine spending 3000 bucks on a DAC with such old technology. Even if I had the money I would probably buy something else... Room treatment, Headphones ... Seems like such a waste of money considering what DS dacs are available for less than $1000.

i used one of my work bonuses; literally a "curious & able" situation. it's like buying a really highend tv when you can get by with a $200 unit. i have 10 headphones to cycle through, so i'm past the point of reasonable spending.

 

[nyxnyxnyx]

some of you here should stop bringing that $9 apple dongle to every comparison while it's so obvious that they are not the same kind of products.
that and telling other subpar or even nearly-excellent products "trash" "overrated" "overpriced" especially when it's already above the threshold of audibility is only helping other viewers to feel disdain toward our community.

 

[avoidwork]

the cayin ru6 is probably the best "cheap" r-2r dac/amp i've come across that sounds pretty close to a most expensive combo - it's not going to drive inefficient headphones, but for everything else it's a reasonable option. i'm listening to one right now, and i know how it's different than the stack beside it that cost significantly more, but there's no way i'd say it sounds bad.

 

[dieselmilk]

Thanks @amirm, while it is obviously a mediocre performer, we've seen much worse (and more musical) R2R designs... At least, this one is suitable for 16 bits contents. Maybe it could have its head back?

This, in particular deserves some honorable mention :View attachment 181654


Not to mention this one will get glowing reviews from subjectivists anyway...

Yea but think of the s o u n d s t a g e and how it's gonna be so wide in someone's review for no reason. Luscious even.

 

[Spocko]

There are cheaper and better options. but not every one cares about price the same way. and the existence of better DACs don't make this one worse.

This is why i would say it’s Not terrible or even fine if you only listen to CDs and don’t care about price at all.

I think this is where the confusion/tension arises. I'm not so much about recommending "cheaper options" solely on SINAD performance but rather for the premium price range of $3000 - $4000, there are better designed options where the SINAD is less relevant and usability + design is many steps above the SMSL. When they tread on the premium segment, it's no longer about performance inside a solid billet aluminum case, but all the intangibles from the click of the volume knob to the feel of the remote to ease of operation to visibility of the display. I would look at the Auralic Altair G1 for a few hundred less before I'd consider the VMV D3. If SMSL wants to play with the big boy DACs in terms of usability, design and the "feel" of high end, it needs to look at Lumin and Aurender as well. Upstarts like HiFi Rose RS250 for $2500 is also gaining momentum and looks much more premium:

The days of wrapping your DAC in R2R magic for $3,500 is simply not enough when you are attracting the discriminating clientele. It looked like a $1000 DAC to me, that's why I expected it to compensate elsewhere (like amazing SINAD) but with nothing special in measurements, I'm just left wondering about its intangible value proposition - is it purely the placebo of R2R? So no it's not terrible if you refer to only its sound quality, but it's pretty terrible everywhere else.

 

[Lambda]

I would look at the Auralic Altair G1 for a few hundred less before I'd consider the VMV D3. If SMSL wants to play with the big boy DACs in terms of usability, design and the "feel" of high end, it needs to look at Lumin and Aurender as well. Upstarts like HiFi Rose RS250 for $2500 is also gaining momentum and looks much more premium:

I would not won't to have them for free...
To Munch "smart" BS. i want my DAC to do one thing. Converting from digital to analog
Also (Sca)MQA certified and "highres" No balanced output. and 400$ extra for 2TB storage...

I'm just left wondering how about its intangible value proposition - is it purely the placebo of R2R?

If you want to call it "placebo" yes.