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SMSL SU-8 Version 2 Balanced DAC

Biblob

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I am not a native english-speaker and I don't understand that sentence.
Can someone explain it to me?
My shot at this is he means, notes above 20khz can make some intermodulation frequencys below 20khz, making them audibe. Please correct me if I'm interpreting this incorrect.
 

daftcombo

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My shot at this is he means, notes above 20khz can make some intermodulation frequencys below 20khz, making them audibe. Please correct me if I'm interpreting this incorrect.

Do you mean artefacts, instead of actual sounds in the recording?
 

Biblob

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Well if there is >20khz sounds in the recording, the resultant intermodulation would be there already as well. Would not really call them artefacts, rather 'lower harmonics'.
 
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amirm

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My shot at this is he means, notes above 20khz can make some intermodulation frequencys below 20khz, making them audibe. Please correct me if I'm interpreting this incorrect.
That's correct. The issue with it in practice is that intermodulation distortion is usually a lot lower than the signals that create them. Usually the content above 20 kHz has exceedingly low amplitude. As such, intermodulation they create is even lower. That tiny bit then needs to overcome the music signal below 20 kHz which seems very improbable.

So while the theory is correct, in practice finding such a test case would be very hard.
 

daftcombo

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That's correct. The issue with it in practice is that intermodulation distortion is usually a lot lower than the signals that create them. Usually the content above 20 kHz has exceedingly low amplitude. As such, intermodulation they create is even lower. That tiny bit then needs to overcome the music signal below 20 kHz which seems very improbable.

So while the theory is correct, in practice finding such a test case would be very hard.

You found many ultrasonics when testing the SMSL AD18. Is that device more prone to have hearable IMD?
 

Biblob

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Did you subject yourself to a level matched, blind test? Otherwise your assumptions don't make much sense, unfornutately.
To answer myself, I just read it in another thread. So don't feel obligated to answer again.
 
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amirm

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Is that
You found many ultrasonics when testing the SMSL AD18. Is that device more prone to have hearable IMD?
It could be then they would be reflected in the measurements.
 

MWC

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MWC said:
audio energy above 20Khz can audibly effect how we hear within the 20Hz to 20kHz 'human hearing' range.

daftcombo said,
I am not a native english-speaker and I don't understand that sentence.
Can someone explain it to me?

:lol: that daftcombo seems to like baiting badgers. Doesn't he have any kind of life?
 

MWC

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I think the problem here with this, is relying on instruments only to measure harmonic & sympathetic resonance, which is more difficult than using one's trained listening ears to hear how higher frequencies of music filter down in effect to the lower 'human hearing range.'
However, to be polite, it may be best to call this a 'theory' rather than 'empirical fact', as empirical science is limited by the tools it has to hand, as much as by the closed minds that can't contemplate anything out side their usual accepted paradigm.

The frequency range of a microphone is defined as the interval between its upper limiting frequency and its lower limiting frequency. With today’s microphones you can cover a frequency range starting from around 1Hz and reaching up to 140 kHz.

If this is all completely new to one, then one might like to read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympathetic_resonance and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_resonance to get an understanding of the basics. Then extrapolate to high frequencies beyond human hearing& now be able to appreciate how they are affecting lower harmonics that are within the range of human hearing.

At least one member of each instrument family (strings, woodwinds, brass and percussion) produces energy to 40 kHz or above see paper: https://www.cco.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/spectra.htm

Please notice what this paper says about cymbal crashes being beyond their measurement limit of 102.4 kHz . For me it is the sound of the cymbals that is most obvious when appreciating how much better good 'Hi-Res; is compared to redbook.

Significance of the results
Given the existence of musical-instrument energy above 20 kilohertz, it is natural to ask whether the energy matters to human perception or music recording. The common view is that energy above 20 kHz does not matter, but AES preprint 3207 by Oohashi et al. claims that reproduced sound above 26 kHz "induces activation of alpha-EEG (electroencephalogram) rhythms that persist in the absence of high frequency stimulation, and can affect perception of sound quality." [4]
Oohashi and his colleagues recorded gamelan to a bandwidth of 60 kHz, and played back the recording to listeners through a speaker system with an extra tweeter for the range above 26 kHz. This tweeter was driven by its own amplifier, and the 26 kHz electronic crossover before the amplifier used steep filters. The experimenters found that the listeners' EEGs and their subjective ratings of the sound quality were affected by whether this "ultra-tweeter" was on or off, even though the listeners explicitly denied that the reproduced sound was affected by the ultra-tweeter, and also denied, when presented with the ultrasonics alone, that any sound at all was being played.
From the fact that changes in subjects' EEGs "persist in the absence of high frequency stimulation," Oohashi and his colleagues infer that in audio comparisons, a substantial silent period is required between successive samples to avoid the second evaluation's being corrupted by "hangover" of reaction to the first.
The preprint gives photos of EEG results for only three of sixteen subjects. I hope that more will be published.

In a paper published in Science, Lenhardt et al. report that "bone-conducted ultrasonic hearing has been found capable of supporting frequency discrimination and speech detection in normal, older hearing-impaired, and profoundly deaf human subjects." [5] They speculate that the saccule may be involved, this being "an otolithic organ that responds to acceleration and gravity and may be responsible for transduction of sound after destruction of the cochlea," and they further point out that the saccule has neural cross-connections with the cochlea. [6]

Even if we assume that air-conducted ultrasound does not affect direct perception of live sound, it might still affect us indirectly through interfering with the recording process. Every recording engineer knows that speech sibilants (Figure 10), jangling key rings (Figure 15), and muted trumpets (Figures 1 to 3) can expose problems in recording equipment. If the problems come from energy below 20 kHz, then the recording engineer simply needs better equipment. But if the problems prove to come from the energy beyond 20 kHz, then what's needed is either filtering, which is difficult to carry out without sonically harmful side effects; or wider bandwidth in the entire recording chain, including the storage medium; or a combination of the two.
On the other hand, if the assumption of the previous paragraph be wrong — if it is determined that sound components beyond 20 kHz do matter to human musical perception and pleasure — then for highest fidelity, the option of filtering would have to be rejected, and recording chains and storage media of wider bandwidth would be needed.
 
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amirm

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Given the existence of musical-instrument energy above 20 kilohertz, it is natural to ask whether the energy matters to human perception or music recording. The common view is that energy above 20 kHz does not matter, but AES preprint 3207 by Oohashi et al. claims that reproduced sound above 26 kHz "induces activation of alpha-EEG (electroencephalogram) rhythms that persist in the absence of high frequency stimulation, and can affect perception of sound quality." [4]
This report has been discredited.

Regardless, let's not have debates like this in review threads. As I type this the same topic was brought up in another thread and that is where it belongs.
 

MWC

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I would rather not debate this issue at all. I would never say anything about it if I was not asked about it by people stressing their own belief system. People quote this half truths to me as if it was their bible, but this too has been discredited.
Anything can be 'proven' by so called science and statistics. In the end we have 2 opposing parties producing papers and debunking the papers of the other side. It is like religion, it is a belief system on both sides. In the end it is pointless to debate: better to accept the other person has a different 'religion' and give them respect for their humanity and beliefs and leave it at that.
But there are always confrontational people on forums like this, desperate to convince others, proselytising their brand of religion. It is ugly and distasteful!
 
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Anubhav

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I am new here with my first post requesting help ... —- Not sure how and why my question’s reply got digressed this quick :) lol.

Current DACs
— ENOG2, Topping D10, NAD D1050 (also is amp or preamp I think)
Current AMPs
— Archel PRO , JDS Atom
Current HPs
— R70x, X2HR, SRH1540, HE4xx, Q701, NAD HP50

WHAT DACs ?

Is SMSL SU-8 going to be significant upgrade?
Price : $330 AUD

Or Cambridge Audio Magic100
Price : $279 AUD

Or Topping D50 (DX3 Pro same price)
Price: $300 AUD

Or Topping D30
Price: $140 AUD

Or Darkvoice 336SE ? ($380 AUD)
Saw @amirm did not give a good technical rating to these but why are these so well received worldwide ... ? Not keen after @amirm ’s rating but just a question.
 
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Anubhav

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I don't care what others said. You can really hear difference between dacs. Su8 is actually sounding quite different from other dacs I have. Not necessarily good or bad. But there is difference.

My recommendation is don't get ess based dac (at least non pro ones). Get AK4490/4493 or cs4398. They measure not as good at thd+n at max volume but they have much less modulation noises/distortions.

My topping d30 and dx3pro will arrive soon. I'll do some extensive unconventional tests too.
Thx
 
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renaudrenaud

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So I broke a finger two weeks ago and was at home during one week after the accident. This is how I discovered this website. And I spent a lot of time reading and reading. Tonite I was testing with amazon an order. Because I cannot not use correctly my hand, I clicked to confirm the order for the SMSL...

I have a lot of things at home, it will be another box. I wanted a DAC with XLR for direct connection to amplified studio speakers with XLR input.

Now I have to wait 5 days.

I do not want to use a "plain" computer, I want to try with a Raspberry Pi (I am a long time user of the Logitech Media Player). Does somebody has already experimented this with the SU8?

Apart this, what an incredible website. Thanks a lot amirm.
 
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amirm

amirm

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Saw @amirm did not give a good technical rating to these but why are these so well received worldwide ... ? Not keen after @amirm ’s rating but just a question.
My recommendations are based on engineering excellence. Not what you may perceive. What you have is good enough that I am sure you won't hear an improvement by switching. On the other hands, tube products will definitely degrade the performance so don't go there.
 

Jaimo

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Gentlemen- your philosophical musings have nothing to do with the SMSL-SU8 and are out of place, cluttering up what was once a useful thread. Kindly move your banter to that appropriate thread- @Moderator. It will be great if you would clean up this thread and limit discussions to the SU-8
 

MWC

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I know! I wish people would just drop it, rather than continuing to chime in. I am willing to move all my 'banter' to an appropriate thread. No idea where that might be. In fact, I'm willing to delete it all. I have no wish to debate this at all: it's as bad as brexit arguements!
 
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amirm

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I deleted the last two posts from view. Please do not argue things in review threads. People come to these threads for information about the product in question.
 

HenrikPW

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Can anyone tell me if there is there an option to have to have the display turn off automatically when the source/volume isn't being changed? I really want to buy this DAC but won't if i have to worry about OLED display burn-in :confused:
 

Tks

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Can anyone tell me if there is there an option to have to have the display turn off automatically when the source/volume isn't being changed? I really want to buy this DAC but won't if i have to worry about OLED display burn-in :confused:

From what my eyes can see, the display seems to be a 1-bit monotone OLED display. Burn-in on in that respect isn't an issue. Though I agree all devices with displays should nontheless have this auto-shut-off option. EDIT: Also helps during nighttime to not have something so small being as bright as OLED.

On a separate note:

Just a shame any basic UI/UX standards that are common in most other software/hardware devices like phones and computing devices - are actually lacking in many audio devices that don't cost an arm and a leg (goes back to probably the expense required to contract software engineers and designers to do it properly). A massive luxury that showly is being afforded to consumer budgets. RME I think nails the UI aesthetic aspect (though as always navigation of such a complex system is tricky to nail in the UX portion, but since there isn't a guide book, or much inspiration to draw from in the industry, RME has done a fantastic job at the price point nonetheless).
 
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