SMSL SU-8 Version 2 Balanced DAC

[typericey]

I plan to get an SU-8 and connect the Chromecast Audio's optical output to it to play Spotify. Question is: what would be the better (i.e. less degradation) volume control, the Spotify app's or the DAC's?

The rest of the system is a power amp and speakers. No preamp.

 

[MWC]

IMHO use the DAC's volume control rather than Spotify.
However, I think this DAC is overkill for such a low fi source as Spotify, which only broadcasts empty3 quality audio, not even Redbook! Maybe get the Cambridge DAC Magic? On 2nd thoughts if you think the SU-8 is going to perform some magic on empty3 audio, then maybe forget a DAC altogether and rely purely on Magic .

 

[digititus]

IMHO use the DAC's volume control rather than Spotify.
However, I think this DAC is overkill for such a low fi source as Spotify, which only broadcasts empty3 quality audio, not even Redbook! Maybe get the Cambridge DAC Magic? On 2nd thoughts if you think the SU-8 is going to perform some magic on empty3 audio, then maybe forget a DAC altogether and rely purely on Magic .

Spotify sounds great through the SU-8. I would find it difficult to be sure there is a noticeable difference between the Vorbis codec used by Spotify with the same FLAC file.

 

[gvl]

I plan to get an SU-8 and connect the Chromecast Audio's optical output to it to play Spotify. Question is: what would be the better (i.e. less degradation) volume control, the Spotify app's or the DAC's?

The rest of the system is a power amp and speakers. No preamp.

Spotify will use Chromecasts 24 bit volume control vs. 32 bit on the DAC, so technically the DAC will allow to dial down lower than the CCA without losing bits but it likely won't matter much in practice. Spotify premium uses 256kbps AAC codec on the CCA, and it sounds great.

 

[MWC]

Spotify sounds great through the SU-8. I would find it difficult to be sure there is a noticeable difference between the Vorbis codec used by Spotify with the same FLAC file.

But Spotify is, at best, only 320kbps empty3, lossy, nasty SQ! Vorbis and flac are merely containers they have no SQ at all. What is crucial is what is put in the container. Even though flac is a lossless container, if one puts empty3 in it then it is still lossy empty3. As they say; 'crap in = crap out'

 

[MrC]

But Spotify is, at best, only 320kbps empty3, lossy, nasty SQ! Vorbis and flac are merely containers they have no SQ at all. What is crucial is what is put in the container. Even though flac is a lossless container, if one puts empty3 in it then it is still lossy empty3. As they say; 'crap in = crap out'

I play both Spotify and Foobar from my work PC through the SU-8 into either an Atom or a P20 and I don't wish to argue for the sake of it but neither sounds like crap.

 

[digititus]

But Spotify is, at best, only 320kbps empty3, lossy, nasty SQ! Vorbis and flac are merely containers they have no SQ at all. What is crucial is what is put in the container. Even though flac is a lossless container, if one puts empty3 in it then it is still lossy empty3. As they say; 'crap in = crap out'

There is nothing nasty or crap at all in the .ogg premium streaming from Spotify. There are plenty of test sites which will allow you to put your theory to the test. Maybe you should try it before making such statements.

 

[MWC]

There is nothing nasty or crap at all in the .ogg premium streaming from Spotify. There are plenty of test sites which will allow you to put your theory to the test. Maybe you should try it before making such statements.

I speak from experience, having done all kinds of such tests as you recommend. I imagine you failed to tell empty 3 from redbook in those tests then? Spotify streams lossy empty3, unlike Tidal and others that stream lossless audio. If you can't hear the difference then that's OK for you,' ignorance is bliss' as they say.

I play both Spotify and Foobar from my work PC through the SU-8 into either an Atom or a P20 and I don't wish to argue for the sake of it but neither sounds like crap.

You conflate a lossy streaming service with a media player capable of playing the highest resolution audio: like comparing oranges with apples.

Look, if you guys are happy with listening to empty3 stuff then that's OK with me. Each to his own. All I said was an SU-8 is overkill for such a menial task, you could simply use a DAB radio for that. Maybe you have money to burn, lucky you.

 

[typericey]

Spotify will use Chromecasts 24 bit volume control vs. 32 bit on the DAC, so technically the DAC will allow to dial down lower than the CCA without losing bits but it likely won't matter much in practice. Spotify premium uses 256kbps AAC codec on the CCA, and it sounds great.

Thanks. If I read this right and take it as fact then the DAC's volume control is better. Oh, and I didn't know (or somehow forgot) that Spotify is only 256kbps thru CCA. So I guess better to play Spotify thru my Fiio X5 III DAP which has coaxial digital output to get "up to 320kbps".

@MWC I use Spotify for casual listening like while prepping breakfast. I also plan to plug in hi res, lossless, etc. sources to the SU-8 for "critical listening"

 

[gvl]

Thanks. If I read this right and take it as fact then the DAC's volume control is better. Oh, and I didn't know (or somehow forgot) that Spotify is only 256kbps thru CCA. So I guess better to play Spotify thru my Fiio X5 III DAP which has coaxial digital output to get "up to 320kbps".

@MWC I use Spotify for casual listening like while prepping breakfast. I also plan to plug in hi res, lossless, etc. sources to the SU-8 for "critical listening"

AAC compresses better than OGG Vorbis/MP3, so a lower bit-rate doesn't necessarily mean lower quality. If anything, I find 256kbps AAC through CCA actually sounds better then 320kbps on Windows client, but there may be other issues at play as Spotify on Windows doesn't support exclusive mode. As for the volume control, read it doesn't matter for casual listening like when prepping breakfast or at all.

 

[MrC]

You conflate a lossy streaming service with a media player capable of playing the highest resolution audio: like comparing oranges with apples.

There was no comparison in my post at all, at no point did I say there were equal, I said that neither was "crap" as you so kindly called it.

Yes there is a difference between listening to my CDs ripped to FLAC and 320kbps streamed by Spotify, but during a normal working day I am not critically listening to the music, the music is BGM and yes, Spotify is more than ample for this, the same as it is more than ample in my car while competing with road noise etc.

As I said, my comment was not to argue just for the fun of it, I just don't think you should call other people's preference's "crap" just because you don't agree with them. I seem to remember you not being very happy when other people commented on your need for reproduction of frequencies way above the human hearing range.

So, in order to both be happy, I will go back to listening to my "empty3" as you call it and you can go back to listening to your dog whistle symphonies.

 

[MWC]

I'm glad to hear people are not considering using a SU-8 for nothing more than lossy empty3, when a DAB radio would be adequate for that. My only point was that such lossy listening would be a waste of a nice DAC. I'm left wondering why Spotify was used as an example of what one would listen to rather than 'hi res, lossless, etc. sources' in the first place? Still, I imagine the SU-8 will do a good job with all sources.

 

[Ultrasonic]

I'm glad to hear people are not considering using a SU-8 for nothing more than lossy empty3, when a DAB radio would be adequate for that. My only point was that such lossy listening would be a waste of a nice DAC. I'm left wondering why Spotify was used as an example of what one would listen to rather than 'hi res, lossless, etc. sources' in the first place? Still, I imagine the SU-8 will do a good job with all sources.

You realise it's MP3 not empty3, right? I'm only asking as you're repeatedly using the latter.

 

[Jaimo]

@MWC - have you participated in a correctly administered double blind test? What is your criticism of MP3 based on?

 

[digititus]

I speak from experience, having done all kinds of such tests as you recommend. I imagine you failed to tell empty 3 from redbook in those tests then? Spotify streams lossy empty3, unlike Tidal and others that stream lossless audio. If you can't hear the difference then that's OK for you,' ignorance is bliss' as they say.

Excellent. Please explain what you did, so that we can examine your methodology. The fact that you do not know which codec Spotify uses tells me a lot.

 

[MWC]

D

You realise it's MP3 not empty3, right? I'm only asking as you're repeatedly using the latter.

I coined and use the term 'empty3' with humour and criticism. Don't you get it?

 

[Ultrasonic]

D
I coined and use the term 'empty3' with humour and criticism. Don't you get it?

I hoped you had but given you keep going to the surprising trouble if writing it I thought I'd check.

 

[MWC]

Excellent. Please explain what you did, so that we can examine your methodology. The fact that you do not know which codec Spotify uses tells me a lot.

Well if you have nothing better to do with your time:
I have several times used the Foobar ABX comparator plugin. I've also done various 'listening tests' online. On a lesser level I sometimes have a friend load a few versions (e.g. empty3, redbook, & hi-res) of a (volume leveled) file in foobar and have him play them randomly while I'm blind-folded. Then we swap over.

So now we both have a good general idea of what we can hear and where we struggle to hear clear differences. Sometimes 320kbps sounds OK to me, for playing in the background, but I chose to collect hi-res music rather than lossy files and I don't use Spotify or similar products. That is not a criticism just a personal preference. I listen to the radio in the car, but that is because the car's CD player is crap. I'm not saying my choices are superior to anyone else's, they are just a little different. My energy goes into my hi-res library rather than bothering with music in the car/kitchen. Just different priorities that's all. No big deal, so why are you guys getting all defensive about your use of lossy files?

I wont be wasting time with any more detail than this, I have a life

Actually, there is something that I find really obnoxious, not lossy files: if the original was well mastered they can be fine, in their place. But bad modern mastering techniques, using too much compression, as in 'loudness wars' really insult my ears. I will turn down, turn off, or delete ear-bleed (e.g. DR5) files!

As for not knowing what codec Spotify uses: Well, it uses some variation of 'empty3' right? AAC, ogg Vorbis or whatever, is immaterial to me. I don't have any use for Spotify, nor empty3 in general. However, I respect anyone's choice to be satisfied with lossy files, especially in non-critical listening situations: in the car/kitchen etc..

 

[Jaimo]

Speaking for myself- I am not defensive about anything, nor do I have a preference for MP3 or any other format.

I am simply questioning your scientific rigour as this is indeed a science based forum.

I have little tolerance for people who make unsubstantiated claims about audio and insist that they can hear things that can be attributed to a host of psychological biases.

This is nothing but “fake news” and does huge damage to the audio hobby.

I apologize for dragging myself into this discussion that now has very little to do with the SMSL SU8 volume control question and should really be continued in an appropriate thread.

 

[MWC]

The current state of this SU-8 thread is truly sad. How did it descend into this? All I originally said was the SU-8 was overkill for it's stated use with lossy mp3 files. Since then we have just been picking nits!