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SMSL SU-10 DAC Review

Rate this DAC:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 12 3.4%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 14 3.9%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 56 15.8%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 273 76.9%

  • Total voters
    355

dartinbout

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This Sandu guy is a huge joke with those saying
For decades I read audio magazines, all promising breathtaking music, if only I had many tens of thousands, to lavish on their reviewed hardware. Youtube has taken over the "servicing" of that industry. So many Youtube sites practice with the same zeal, of those toothless eunuchs, gumming the hardware marketing dept's until they had a satisfying "finish" and scattered a few coins at the kneeling reviewers.
 

Lukino

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This Sandu guy is a huge joke with those saying
How funny could it be to review subjectively compared to the analyzer. Subjective reviewers themselves do not know what they are hearing. Sometimes it seems that this is good and then that. And of course, the more expensive the better. Etc. Thanks to the measurements, we avoid long descriptions of the delicious wide sound that comes out of our expensive machine. Again, Amir does a good job here. His review at the end is short to the point and clear. In the foreground, the measurement remains, which is much more beneficial than talking about the width of the scene. He could also do it, but he knows it's pointless. There is an SMSL SU-10 in this thread. Its measured products are a joy to buy. I also wish good health to these reasonable people on this forum.How funny could it be to review subjectively compared to the analyzer. Subjective reviewers themselves do not know what they are hearing. Sometimes it seems that this is good and then that. And of course, the more expensive the better. Etc. Thanks to the measurements, we avoid long descriptions of the delicious wide sound that comes out of our expensive machine. Again, Amir does a good job here. His review at the end is short to the point and clear. In the foreground, the measurement remains, which is much more beneficial than talking about the width of the scene. He could also do it, but he knows it's pointless. There is an SMSL SU-10 in this thread. Its measured products are a joy to buy. I also wish good health to these reasonable people on this forum.:)
 

pkane

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So what you are saying is that any DAC with a Sinad of 90 or more is perfect and as such there is no need not only for this product, but for this entire industry. Infact motherboard audio and the output from a cell phone or laptop is already good enough to reproduce everything.
Why did you donate to this forum if you don't believe in higher quality audio?
Did I say any of that???
 

Palladium

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Honestly now I think they should work on adding new features and stuff that people ask for. Do better Bluetooth management, perfect the DSD / MQA implementations and so on and so forth. I'm sure we could get a thread going (if there isn't already one) that has a list of features people want to add.

Programmable seamless automatic input switching? It shouldn't be that hard right?
 

Robbo99999

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You can make cogent arguments for audible benefits of 24 bit audio. But for sample rates higher than 44.1, less so. Anything over 24/48 is overkill. 44.1kHz and if you are stretching it, 48kHz sampling rates contain enough of a margin to suppress aliasing artifacts. But 96kHz and 192kHz sample rates are overkill for that purpose and further either contain no data or inaudible ultrasonic garbage in those high frequency realms.
Yes, I didn't think much when I put 16bit, I myself use 32bit just to have the theoretical max dynamic range when using digital volume control as a negative preamp to cover EQ boosts, and I also use 48kHz for internet & gaming, 44.1kHz for music.
 

JSmith

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It's quite odd to hear people making complaints about a SOTA device... "oh, not another SOTA DAC", "boring review", "no need to test anymore". Unsure what punters actually want... it's important to keep measuring as many products as possible. One cannot assume SOTA measurements...


JSmith
 

dartinbout

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"Complaint" is like a necessary, daily need, for large amounts of the population. It's like a chorus of farts.
 
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ToriCatcher

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At this price point, I would only go for a dac that can perform as to of the line preamp, requiring better IMD, but still looks like a good dac...
 

Jimster480

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Did I say any of that???
I mean if you worship nyquest and Redbook then yes, you basically did say this. Since there would be no reason to have higher SINAD devices if the music SINAD could never pass 90 anyway.
It's quite odd to hear people making complaints about a SOTA device... "oh, not another SOTA DAC", "boring review", "no need to test anymore". Unsure what punters actually want... it's important to keep measuring as many products as possible. One cannot assume SOTA measurements...


JSmith
I mean I think that in general people just want to see new features and other stuff on high end products that would differentiate them from lower end products since the SOTA SINAD is available at all price tiers these days.
Programmable seamless automatic input switching? It shouldn't be that hard right?
It really shouldn't and would be quite nice. I imagine there are a couple devices that do that already...
 

BR52

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Lower distortion measurements are possible with an external notch filter. See Wolf's review of the Cosmos APU.
Also curious:
Wolf's unit of the SU-10 doesn't show any ESS hump. Maybe a firmware thing?
View attachment 238254
Shenzen Audio says 3038pro Wolf is publishing 3039pro! better measurements with the new DAC ? not available yet!
 

staticV3

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Shenzen Audio says 3038pro Wolf is publishing 3039pro! better measurements with the new DAC ? not available yet!
Where does Wolf's review say 9039Pro?
Screenshot_20221024-111607_Chrome.png
 

ocinn

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desI agree that it is more likely that miniDSP will continue to develop products with better analog performance than it is that Topping/SMSL will develop a DAC with DSP. And they certainly have been doing this as everything since the SHD has been a step change compared to their early offerings both in terms of analog performance and usability (i.e display). Topping/SMSL also seem to have such poor technical support that I cannot imagine them producing more complex products and assuming the additional burden of supporting those products.

However I think you are a bit off on analog volume control. One of the few reasons to have DACs with such good SNR / SINAD is that you can attenuate digitally and still retain good SNR at low levels. Apart from a few very low noise preamps (Benchmark LA4, I would say Topping Pre90 but the low balanced input impedance is a joke) it is almost guaranteed that a digital volume control will give you better SNR at attenuated levels. Your XDA-2 for example has a spec'd SNR of 113 dB (presumably at 2 V nominal output). If you run the numbers compared to a modern DAC with 120+ dB SNR at 2 V I think you will be disappointed even at attenuated levels.

For example plot below models system SNR for a DAC with 120 dB SNR at 2 V coupled with a very high performance amplifier (Audiophonics HPA-S400ET in medium gain mode), blue trace uses digital volume control and orange trace adds an analog volume control with 113 dB SNR at 2 V. Digital volume control wins at all volume levels because the residual noise from the analog volume control is so much worse.

View attachment 238991

Michael
I am not an expert in the realm of electrical engineering, I am an acoustics guy, So very much open to correction here.

I would assume that a digital attenuation (i.e. before the D>A conversion takes place) would allow the inherent idle noise floor of the converter to remain at a constant level regardless of volume position. Thus, as you decrease the output volume digitally, the noise floor remains constant; therefore, the ratio between noise and the signal shrinks, and you lose "performance"

In analog volume control (referring to attenuation post D>A conversion, (obviously many use a "digital" encoder to control a resistor matrix), would not only attenuate the signal but would also (in a "technically ideal" sense) attenuate the noise floor of the device.

Let's say we had a theoretical digital domain volume-controlled DAC with a -120db noise floor at full output. Let's say you turn it down to -40db. Now your noise floor would sit around -80db below the 40db attenuated signal. So you've theoretically lost 40db of SNR due to the fact the main signal has been attenuated but the noise floor has remained constant.

If we had an otherwise identical analog volume DAC that also managed -120db SNR at full output, lowering the output by 40db would not only (theoretically) lower the main signal to -40db but it would also lower the noise floor down to -160db (compared to full output). So in a theoretically perfect world, your SNR would be retained.

The issue I don't quite understand with the graph is how the "analog" volume control is tracked at a parallel slope to digital. You'd think that any introduced noise of including an analog attenuation circuit vs Digital would be at a fixed/constant level.. Assuming the noise introduced by the resistor ladder is above that of the actual DAC, you'd theoretically expect a perfectly straight line for analog, showing that the analog attenuation noise is the "bottleneck" per se.

I would have thought the graph would look something like this. the digital DAC outperforms the analog DAC (at close to max output, since the analog resistor stage might introduce low-level noise over a direct digital DAC) and then once the SNR of the digital volume DAC degrades, the analog volume DAC quickly outtakes it, being limited by the bottleneck of its analog resistor stage.
 

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JSmith

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Shenzen Audio says 3038pro Wolf is publishing 3039pro!
All sites appear to say 9038 Pro for the SU-10... seems it is the SU-9 Pro that has the 9039;
I made a typo in an earlier post that said dual 9039's... I hope that wasn't what sent you on the wrong track.


JSmith
 

BR52

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All sites appear to say 9038 Pro for the SU-10... seems it is the SU-9 Pro that has the 9039;
I made a typo in an earlier post that said dual 9039's... I hope that wasn't what sent you on the wrong track.


JSmith
It seem's to be. Sorry Static V3.
 
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JSmith

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Thus, as you decrease the output volume digitally, the noise floor remains constant; therefore, the ratio between noise and the signal shrinks, and you lose "performance"
Ah, that depends...
1666604371506.png



JSmith
 

pkane

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I mean if you worship nyquest and Redbook then yes, you basically did say this. Since there would be no reason to have higher SINAD devices if the music SINAD could never pass 90 anyway.
You seem to have no understanding of the basic principles. What does Nyquist have to do with SINAD and how does one worship a mathematical theorem?
 

sq225917

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That ESS claim above is patently false. Noise does not scale with output level.
 

srkbear

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Anything beyond 16\44.1 is snakeoil, so it serves to maintain perspective. Often the recordings that are beyond 16\44.1 contain silly amount of high frequency noise last time I remember looking at some ASR breadkdowns Amir did.
I’m in agreement with your posts as a rule, but I’m not sure I think everything beyond 44.1/16 is snake oil—that seems a bit extreme in the dogmatic sense, dontcha think?

No doubt it’s arguable whether the vast majority of folks can hear the difference between Red Book and hi res audio, but that doesn’t mean that no one can, or that DAC manufacturers and streaming services are ripping us off by offering higher sampling rates. If that were true then the whole principle of reviewing DACs on here would be fraudulent above 96db!
 

srkbear

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Shenzen Audio says 3038pro Wolf is publishing 3039pro! better measurements with the new DAC ? not available yet!
Yes I mentioned this in an earlier post. The 9039pro came out in May, but the SU-9 pro is the first DAC I’ve seen offering it. They’re publishing SINAD of 127, which based on Amir’s earlier posts seems to exceed the limits of current measuring gear if I’m understanding him correctly.

Fortunately SMSL seems eager to submit their gear here for review, so hopefully we’ll see it put to the test soon—because the unit trounces this one, and both the d90SE and X18, in price. Less than $500!
 
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