• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

SMSL M400 & M200 new dacs!

Fimbul

Member
Joined
May 26, 2020
Messages
11
Likes
14
Location
Germany
This site is all about measurments and asking about coloration is frowned upon. Backlash is probably iminent. Coloration would basically mean that the DAC measures badly. I however have a somewhat open minded approach to that. From what I've heard, the AK4499 delivers a punchy bass, above average sound stage and top notch resolution. One popular audio reviewer on youtube remarked that usually AK chips are lacking in bass compared to Sabre chips, but that the AK4499 would make up on that side. If you're interested in subjective statements like that, just look up reviews for the Topping D90. I cannot tell you how much (subjective) truth there is about those claims atm, though. The only way I can listen to it right now, is through a shıtty "home PA" that I have sheduled to replace next year. In other words, I have bottle necks that screw with overall sound quality.
 

HITMAN

Member
Joined
May 30, 2020
Messages
7
Likes
5
Thank you for your reply I am not sure that I did ask about coloration just the knowledge of DAC users and if it would be worth the upgrade but thank you for the warning and I will prepare for the backlash.
 

Fimbul

Member
Joined
May 26, 2020
Messages
11
Likes
14
Location
Germany
Thank you for your reply I am not sure that I did ask about coloration just the knowledge of DAC users and if it would be worth the upgrade but thank you for the warning and I will prepare for the backlash.
Sorry, I undertood "technical data" as measurments and "sound" as coloration. I may have lurked for too long. :D
 

Veri

Master Contributor
Joined
Feb 6, 2018
Messages
9,596
Likes
12,036
One popular audio reviewer on youtube remarked that usually AK chips are lacking in bass compared to Sabre chips, but that the AK4499 would make up on that side.
Well that's just ridiculous. One reviewer says Sabre is known for bass, another says for their "glaring" highs, these kind of statements are utterly unproven and unsubstantiated...
 

Fimbul

Member
Joined
May 26, 2020
Messages
11
Likes
14
Location
Germany
Well that's just ridiculous. One reviewer says Sabre is known for bass, another says for their "glaring" highs, these kind of statements are utterly unproven and unsubstantiated...
I will not tell people what they hear or what the do not. However I will liberally make use of words like "supposedly", "alledgedly" and "subjective". ;)
 

misterdog

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Dec 7, 2018
Messages
503
Likes
389
HI could any one tell me about the sound of the M400 instead of the technical data at the moment I have a pioneer UO5 which I am using just the dac part through a SP

See post 189 page 10 he managed to escape the backlash :facepalm:

So far..

I thought the box was good and I like the high gloss acrylic top, seems to be the only subjective comments allowed on here.

Audio eh, it's more than just music..
 
Last edited:

Abodh

Member
Joined
May 30, 2020
Messages
9
Likes
10
Rather than drag this further OT, and to better address the burn-in question with a somewhat broader audience with a better chance of participation from some of our members who have actual design experience, maybe a separate thread would be helpful.

Sorry guys I did not want to start the age old burn in debate all over here.
I am skeptical myself about the burn in claims specially with digital equipments. So I jumped straight into A/B testing to compare these DACs trying to justify the premium cost associated some of the TOTL DACs.
To be honest I wasn't expecting any new DACs to out perform SU-8 by much, audibly, I just didn't want them to be completely off with some features or quality issues.
I did not find ANY difference while A/B testing with total attention and with simple tracks discerning vocals/instruments and such.
But I am curious about their right out of box "musical" performance over lets say 20-30 minutes with usual songs full of dynamics and mix of frequencies. I do not know of any experiment designed to measure this, which would be pretty complex. All we have is their literal output measurements with given input frequency fed one at a time. I may be wrong here but I come from a place where I only want to invest towards audible improvements.
Again, all I wanted to convey is I learned to give any new equipments few hours of listening before judging them, may be my ears adjust to them and I may like the new sound they have to offer.
 

Marlowe

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
8
Likes
5
Location
New Jersey
This site is all about measurments and asking about coloration is frowned upon. Backlash is probably iminent. Coloration would basically mean that the DAC measures badly. I however have a somewhat open minded approach to that.
Your characterization of this site is spot on. That's why, although I do find this site to provide useful information, I consider it a gathering place for cultists.
 

sq225917

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 23, 2019
Messages
1,361
Likes
1,612
I posted this earlier elsewhere.

Burn in is real, easily measurable and audible in some circuits.

I build a zero feedback transimpedance phonostage with good measured specs, snr typically-84db at 61db gain and 0.003% thd. When first assembled dc offset at the output swings +/- 100mv, after 70 hours its sub 1mv. This is solely due to caps on the current mirrors forming with use and easily measured via the leakage on the caps and the dc at the output.

I'm not saying all circuits are similarly affected, I dont believe they are. But it's real, measurable and can be audible.
 

Harmonie

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 30, 2020
Messages
1,927
Likes
2,084
Location
France
View attachment 66202View attachment 66204

Got it few days ago!
I already had SU-8v2+THX-789 for the reading/meditation room and needed one more DAC+AMP for my office; now that i spend most of the time in home office.

THX made it easy for the amp part but I have been going back and forth on believing "All DACs sound same".
I was about to pull the trigger on DX7Pro to end this madness of reading reviews.
But then after reading so many reviews over three weeks; I bought M200 and M500 (Since reviews and measurements telling me they are up there among some top DACs) to compare them myself.

I have been listening to Amazon HD+Tidal on following setups back and forth all day.
SU-8v2 > THX > LCD-4 / LCD-2C
M200 > THX > LCD-4 / LCD-2C
M500 > THX > LCD-4 / LCD-2C
Oppo-HA2-SE > THX > LCD-4 / LCD-2C

So far I have come to these weird conclusions:
1. With THX and LCD-4s its irritating to listen to anything that is not Hi-Res. I can hear YouTube compression artifacts, patches and cracks.
2. All the DACs sound surprisingly same with Oppo sounding weakest in terms of punch but still thick and wide during A/B testing.
3. I noticed DACs need some burn-in !!!! Both M200 and M500 sounded distorted/cheap during first few hours even to Oppo. I was able to feel the edginess when listening to the whole album. It wasn't noticeable during A/B testing.

M500 is a keeper for sure. M500 has 7V on XLR out, and that's some serious power! I could run LCD-4s (200ohm) on 789 low gain and still have plenty of headroom.

But I am hoping to like M200 and save some $$$.
But Amazon HD dosen't want to cooperate with it. Roon has no problem taking exclusive control. May be Amazon app is getting confused between three SMSL devices.
Also I am not sure about the three sound color filters on it, they don't make any audible difference like SU-8.
Su-8 filters can really fix the balance of your setup if it is too clinical or too warm or lacking dynamics, which is unique and perfect.
Hi Abodh,

So you are an SMSL fan and have both AKM and Sabre dacs. Which is your preference an prefered one ?
 

hyperknot

Active Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2019
Messages
260
Likes
166
Hi, does anyone have a manual? I wonder what is Sound Color 1 / Sound Color 2 / 3. etc in the website.

abab108e07711fc8e941011e4a011c82.jpg
 

Veri

Master Contributor
Joined
Feb 6, 2018
Messages
9,596
Likes
12,036
Hi, does anyone have a manual? I wonder what is Sound Color 1 / Sound Color 2 / 3. etc in the website.
Also wondered what these are, because AKM chips do not have THD compensation like Sabre. What could these change?

Hmm.
 

Fimbul

Member
Joined
May 26, 2020
Messages
11
Likes
14
Location
Germany
I do not have sound color settings on the M400, nor are they documented in the manual. Must be M200 exclusive, if they exist at all.
Edit: Silly me, they have different chips, of course!
 

CivilWizard

Member
Joined
May 17, 2020
Messages
8
Likes
9
Hi, does anyone have a manual? I wonder what is Sound Color 1 / Sound Color 2 / 3. etc in the website.

abab108e07711fc8e941011e4a011c82.jpg
I have the m200. Unfortunately those images are shots taken directly from the manual. No additional information is given.
 

ModDIY

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Mar 26, 2020
Messages
662
Likes
424
Location
Canada
Hi, on my M200, Bluetooth no longer works. The Bluetooth recognizes the connection and also my cell with LDAC and standard. Nothing worked for a few days now. Connections are made but no sound.
 

ModDIY

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Mar 26, 2020
Messages
662
Likes
424
Location
Canada
Hi, I did a bunch of tests, I found a workaround to the problem. Is it my cell phone or the Bluetooth controller, I don't know.

Now it works again :D, I have to dissociate the bluetooth `` SMSL HDBT '' and redo the connection and then the sound works.

I have several Bluetooth (Qualcomm QC3008, CSR8645) and no problems with my LG G5 cell phone. I tried in compressed mode and with APTX-HD (via the developer mode of my cell), no problem with the others.

As I explain, I have to dissociate the Bluetooth from the M-200 and then the sound works.

Otherwise it displays 96khz in LDAC mode, 48khz in APTX-HD mode and 44khz for standard mode but no sound. Now I know how to make it work.

Has anyone else had any problems ??
 

ModDIY

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Mar 26, 2020
Messages
662
Likes
424
Location
Canada
Anyway I continue my tests. I tried again, and when it doesn't work, either by closing the DAC or my cellphone connection, it doesn't work anymore. I just dissociate and then I reconnect and it works again.

It is possible that there is a behavior problem on the side of my cell ...

As long as I know how to make it work.
 

1000ROUNDZ

Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2020
Messages
21
Likes
27
Hi, I did a bunch of tests, I found a workaround to the problem. Is it my cell phone or the Bluetooth controller, I don't know.

Now it works again :D, I have to dissociate the bluetooth `` SMSL HDBT '' and redo the connection and then the sound works.

I have several Bluetooth (Qualcomm QC3008, CSR8645) and no problems with my LG G5 cell phone. I tried in compressed mode and with APTX-HD (via the developer mode of my cell), no problem with the others.

As I explain, I have to dissociate the Bluetooth from the M-200 and then the sound works.

Otherwise it displays 96khz in LDAC mode, 48khz in APTX-HD mode and 44khz for standard mode but no sound. Now I know how to make it work.

Has anyone else had any problems ??
Curious to know if you've tried connecting to your computer via Bluetooth? Does it work? I tried for fun connecting my DAP to my Mac via Bluetooth but there's no sound when playing music. Works fine with my phone tho.
 

Abodh

Member
Joined
May 30, 2020
Messages
9
Likes
10
Hi, does anyone have a manual? I wonder what is Sound Color 1 / Sound Color 2 / 3. etc in the website.

abab108e07711fc8e941011e4a011c82.jpg

Switching back and forth between Sound Color filters, I could not perceive any clear difference, so at this point its just placebo effect for me.. some songs sound crispier on SC1 and others on SC3.
Eventually I have gave up thinking about them..


photo_2020-06-03_17-14-16.jpg
 
Top Bottom