SMSL M400 and SMSL SP200 a good combo?

[Womble25]

Hello everyone,

Firstly i'd like to say i am an avid reader of the forum but in no way an expert, in fact i am probably a n00b. now i've got that out the way here is my questions.

Gear:
SMSL SP200 (RCA In )
SMSL M400 (RCA out) (Optical in)
Audio Engine D1 (superseded)
Sebaj PHA-2 (superseded)

Headphones: Beyerdynamic 1990 Pro's

Music taste: just about everything, but currently a lot of electronic


So i recently purchased the SP200 THX AAA amp by SMSL. Originally i hadn't had the M400 and was using a Audio Engine D1 as an interim as i waited for delivery.

My first thought were that it was an absolute powerhouse, to some extent maybe a little too fatiguing as many have pointed out.

When i finally got my M400 i did feel the overall sound got a lot better and a lot louder so i did feel it was a major improvement but i still feel im not 100% happy with the amp. Mainly i feel i always feel a need to scratch the itch and turn the music louder, but i can't quite find what i like. High gain is great for some stuff like drum and bass, it really has a lot more dynamics. While low is great for easy listening to some extent, but sometimes just feels very flat and boring.

I also noticed that there is a hum around 11-12 oclock on low gain and lower still on high gain, although this could be because i am splitting the RCA signal using a Y splitting cable. I have tried the set up without the RCA splitter previously so i will unplug and test the hum and reply to this thread with findings.

Another issue which is probably a minor thing, i think maybe the power cable was loose but this morning i turned on the amp and got a popping/grinding noise.i turned the amp off, I put the volume to low, turned low gain on and checked the cable. Switched it back on and the issue was gone seemingly.

But overall these issues all seem to add to an overall conflicted feeling of disappointment. Sometimes i feel i prefered my previous amp the Sebaj PHA-2 which is currently out of production and i have given to a friend for the time being.

Some days i love this amp, i have had it now 9 days, i know it's not much to go off but i am getting a gut feeling i am not quite happy with it. I will take any suggestions on anything i can do to improve the set up.

Just note that i am in the UK and i don't have access to massdrop items, although i am not completely impartial to importing goods overseas, although id prefer to avoid it if possible.

I have also attached a photo for my set up so you can see space requirements Thanks everyone for your patience if you have read this far.

So to summarise my questions are:

1) is this a good Dac & amp combo (M400 / SMSL SP200)?
2) Will going from balanced outputs on the DAC to the SP200 be beneficial as the SP200 isn't truly balanced regarding wiring?
3) Is there any Better pairings for the M400? (i had heard mention of a SP400 being released this year but SMSL are quiet on this)
4) i am splitting the RCA out of my DAC to my Hifi amp, what splitters should i use

 

[Lero]

1) very good amp with very good dac ( nice desk too )
2) from my experience you will gain some volume 2v to 4v input, better signal quality? maybe but hardly audible in my opinion, this will probably be good if you will pair very hard headphones in the future with the sp200. Im currently driving ,with good headroom, a pair of dt880s 600ohm with balanced inputs but it should be good with rca too. I repeat more volume but can't tell about better quality.
3) soon to realease ( i hope so ) sp400 and topping a30pro, measurements will say if they are better the the current sp200/l30 from topping.
4) dont split, noise and hum!!! buy balanced cables for the dac-amp connection and go rca to hifi amp!!!

 

[Womble25]

1) very good amp with very good dac ( nice desk too )
2) from my experience you will gain some volume 2v to 4v input, better signal quality? maybe but hardly audible in my opinion, this will probably be good if you will pair very hard headphones in the future with the sp200. Im currently driving ,with good headroom, a pair of dt880s 600ohm with balanced inputs but it should be good with rca too. I repeat more volume but can't tell about better quality.
3) soon to release ( i hope so ) sp400 and topping a30pro, measurements will say if they are better the the current sp200/l30 from topping.
4) dont split, noise and hum!!! buy balanced cables for the dac-amp connection and go rca to hifi amp!!!

Hey thanks for the reply dude, nice to hear someone has a similar setup to me. Would love to see your set up too! Thanks for the thumbs up on the desk and set up too.

Just on answer 4) if i run XLR out of my DAC to Amp I presume if i turn my headphone amp off the XLR out will disable and the DAC will then send out via RCA to my other source (hifi amp/speakers)? I know that's a dumb question but it's always best to clarify.

Also do you have any recommendations on high quality XLR cables which are short enough for Headphone amp/dac set ups?

Also i noticed i have now changed my input select on the DAC to USB since it supports 384khz, even if the source is still only 44.1khz it sounds a lot tighter, i have heard about Jitter issues with Toslink cables in the past so people have said use USB. So i've swapped that over and it already seems tighter on the bass and sound, could just be me but hey if my brain thinks it sounds better great

 

[Lero]

I dont have raccomandations but i bought ghotam xlr 20cm (world best cable ( its the brand name)) but you can find a lot of very good cable fot less than 50bucks for the pair. I would go less than 50cm for cable management and very very small quality loss in the dac-amp link.
Dac should be capable to do rca or xlr or both at the same time ( mine do this ) but i dont know if the dac auto detect the amp switch-off and turn to the other connection.
i really can't tell if quality change with a source of 44k and an out of a higher bitrate...in any case set the highest your system can heandle. For example i cant run spotify higher than 192khz ( not that its necessary) .
usb vs toslink maybe a lot of factors...
Im running soncoz la-qxd1 balanced xlr to sp200 and rca to a swan m50w.
I like my setup but maybe the amp/dac will be replaced if something better come out.

 

[Womble25]

I dont have raccomandations but i bought ghotam xlr 20cm (world best cable ( its the brand name)) but you can find a lot of very good cable fot less than 50bucks for the pair. I would go less than 50cm for cable management and very very small quality loss in the dac-amp link.
Dac should be capable to do rca or xlr or both at the same time ( mine do this ) but i dont know if the dac auto detect the amp switch-off and turn to the other connection.
i really can't tell if quality change with a source of 44k and an out of a higher bitrate...in any case set the highest your system can heandle. For example i cant run spotify higher than 192khz ( not that its necessary) .
usb vs toslink maybe a lot of factors...
Im running soncoz la-qxd1 balanced xlr to sp200 and rca to a swan m50w.
I like my setup but maybe the amp/dac will be replaced if something better come out.

Nice set up dude, i like it!

yeah i think usually most amps either send through one output or the other typically. But i guess i'll just have to try and see what happens.

Unless someone can confirm both XLR / RCA transmit at the same time but it doesn't make as much sense as they are different parts of the circuitry i presume. I was looking at some Audio Quest cables i hear they're really good but they're like £100 for a pair so about 110$ or so.

and yeah spotify is good for streaming, but i have moved over onto amazon HD now which offers " HD" FLAC @ 16 bit 44.1khz in or "Ultra HD" 24 bit 48khz

the difference is huge, especially for detail. It's only a few dollars more over spotify and offers pretty much the same library if not more than spotify all with at least HD which is awesome. You should try the trial but they updated their player and its much better than the clunky mess it was previously.

 

[Lero]

I am very skeptical in terms of " super high end cables " especially in a half of a meter cable, go short and thick don't spend 100 bucks on xlr unless you are rich *blink*
Dacs can send signal in a lot of ways both a the same time is very practical if you can mute the amp or the speaker separately.
I personaly don't understand this ab test where you "verify" if your system is ready for lossless with no sense tracks, i can notice flac vs spotify best quality differences but in my opinion 99% of what you can hear is your gear+ the actual record quality.
Im in a spotify family plan and its very very ok for me, maybe one day i'll give master tidal a try or equivalent services, you made me curious about amazon music hd too

 

[Shahoff]

Hello everyone,

Firstly i'd like to say i am an avid reader of the forum but in no way an expert, in fact i am probably a n00b. now i've got that out the way here is my questions.

Gear:
SMSL SP200 (RCA In )
SMSL M400 (RCA out) (Optical in)
Audio Engine D1 (superseded)
Sebaj PHA-2 (superseded)

Headphones: Beyerdynamic 1990 Pro's

Music taste: just about everything, but currently a lot of electronic


So i recently purchased the SP200 THX AAA amp by SMSL. Originally i hadn't had the M400 and was using a Audio Engine D1 as an interim as i waited for delivery.

My first thought were that it was an absolute powerhouse, to some extent maybe a little too fatiguing as many have pointed out.

When i finally got my M400 i did feel the overall sound got a lot better and a lot louder so i did feel it was a major improvement but i still feel im not 100% happy with the amp. Mainly i feel i always feel a need to scratch the itch and turn the music louder, but i can't quite find what i like. High gain is great for some stuff like drum and bass, it really has a lot more dynamics. While low is great for easy listening to some extent, but sometimes just feels very flat and boring.

I also noticed that there is a hum around 11-12 oclock on low gain and lower still on high gain, although this could be because i am splitting the RCA signal using a Y splitting cable. I have tried the set up without the RCA splitter previously so i will unplug and test the hum and reply to this thread with findings.

Another issue which is probably a minor thing, i think maybe the power cable was loose but this morning i turned on the amp and got a popping/grinding noise.i turned the amp off, I put the volume to low, turned low gain on and checked the cable. Switched it back on and the issue was gone seemingly.

But overall these issues all seem to add to an overall conflicted feeling of disappointment. Sometimes i feel i prefered my previous amp the Sebaj PHA-2 which is currently out of production and i have given to a friend for the time being.

Some days i love this amp, i have had it now 9 days, i know it's not much to go off but i am getting a gut feeling i am not quite happy with it. I will take any suggestions on anything i can do to improve the set up.

Just note that i am in the UK and i don't have access to massdrop items, although i am not completely impartial to importing goods overseas, although id prefer to avoid it if possible.

I have also attached a photo for my set up so you can see space requirements Thanks everyone for your patience if you have read this far.

View attachment 93005

So to summarise my questions are:

1) is this a good Dac & amp combo (M400 / SMSL SP200)?
2) Will going from balanced outputs on the DAC to the SP200 be beneficial as the SP200 isn't truly balanced regarding wiring?
3) Is there any Better pairings for the M400? (i had heard mention of a SP400 being released this year but SMSL are quiet on this)
4) i am splitting the RCA out of my DAC to my Hifi amp, what splitters should i use

Did you sorted?
I am currently using SMSL SU-8 + SP200 connected via some amazon 30cm balanced cables and running USB from PC. Powering two sets of headphones, DT177x and Philips X2HR modified for full balance perforated leather pads. RCAs are connected to HiFi amp - at the same time as SP200. SP200 running on Low Gain somewhere between 10 and 11 o'clock for both headphones. Going to 12 starts to hurt my years. There is no point to connect balanced capable equipment with RCA.

At some stage found that I can hear interference from polishing machine my wife did run downstairs, so I cleaned up setup a bit , by changing USB cable to thick shielded golden plated for 15-20 Euro from Amazon, plus put ferrites on this USB , and on all power cables involved - all noise from polishing machine gone and actual noise floor which was already very dark became completely black.


Finally I managed to make an agreement with myself ( this cost me arm and leg ) and I finally purchased SMSL M400 and a lot of my friends told me that I have to try AK based DAC. So , will run nearly the same setup as your.

 

[Lupin]

Hello everyone,

Firstly i'd like to say i am an avid reader of the forum but in no way an expert, in fact i am probably a n00b. now i've got that out the way here is my questions.

Gear:
SMSL SP200 (RCA In )
SMSL M400 (RCA out) (Optical in)
Audio Engine D1 (superseded)
Sebaj PHA-2 (superseded)

Headphones: Beyerdynamic 1990 Pro's

Music taste: just about everything, but currently a lot of electronic


So i recently purchased the SP200 THX AAA amp by SMSL. Originally i hadn't had the M400 and was using a Audio Engine D1 as an interim as i waited for delivery.

My first thought were that it was an absolute powerhouse, to some extent maybe a little too fatiguing as many have pointed out.

When i finally got my M400 i did feel the overall sound got a lot better and a lot louder so i did feel it was a major improvement but i still feel im not 100% happy with the amp. Mainly i feel i always feel a need to scratch the itch and turn the music louder, but i can't quite find what i like. High gain is great for some stuff like drum and bass, it really has a lot more dynamics. While low is great for easy listening to some extent, but sometimes just feels very flat and boring.

I also noticed that there is a hum around 11-12 oclock on low gain and lower still on high gain, although this could be because i am splitting the RCA signal using a Y splitting cable. I have tried the set up without the RCA splitter previously so i will unplug and test the hum and reply to this thread with findings.

Another issue which is probably a minor thing, i think maybe the power cable was loose but this morning i turned on the amp and got a popping/grinding noise.i turned the amp off, I put the volume to low, turned low gain on and checked the cable. Switched it back on and the issue was gone seemingly.

But overall these issues all seem to add to an overall conflicted feeling of disappointment. Sometimes i feel i prefered my previous amp the Sebaj PHA-2 which is currently out of production and i have given to a friend for the time being.

Some days i love this amp, i have had it now 9 days, i know it's not much to go off but i am getting a gut feeling i am not quite happy with it. I will take any suggestions on anything i can do to improve the set up.

Just note that i am in the UK and i don't have access to massdrop items, although i am not completely impartial to importing goods overseas, although id prefer to avoid it if possible.

I have also attached a photo for my set up so you can see space requirements Thanks everyone for your patience if you have read this far.

View attachment 93005

So to summarise my questions are:

1) is this a good Dac & amp combo (M400 / SMSL SP200)?
2) Will going from balanced outputs on the DAC to the SP200 be beneficial as the SP200 isn't truly balanced regarding wiring?
3) Is there any Better pairings for the M400? (i had heard mention of a SP400 being released this year but SMSL are quiet on this)
4) i am splitting the RCA out of my DAC to my Hifi amp, what splitters should i use

Wondering why you choose the more expensive M400 instead of the matching M200 DAC.
Both M200 and M400 measure very well and should be "transparent", one should not sound different to the other.

 

[Shahoff]

Wondering why you choose the more expensive M400 instead of the matching M200 DAC.
Both M200 and M400 measure very well and should be "transparent", one should not sound different to the other.

Can I add my 2 coins as I have exactly the same setup?
Music is not about measurements. We are not listening 1kHz sinusoid to relax or enjoy. M400 is real hi end DAC with completely different AK chip and of cause sounds completely different to M200 or SU-8 I had ( still have ) in my case. Also M400 do have full MQA support which is very handy with my Tidal subscription.
But amplifier is completely different story. I do not see the reason to change to SP400 as example as SP200 is so good that the only differences I can see is maximum power output and matching to M400 design (and price obviously , I got my SP200 on Drop for less than 200 dollars ) . In regards of power - the heaviest of my headphones easily reach comfortable loudness at 10-11 o'clock nob at low gain on my SP200 and I do not see the reason to double power output with SP400.

 

[Lupin]

Completely different.. it's AK4499EQ vs. AK4497EQ
Both measure very well and any distortion is way over the threshold of human hearing as is the soundfloor.
Both also have a super straight frequency response so there shouldn't any difference there either.

Maybe I'm missing something here but when both chips are properly implemented and working well which the measurements suggests they are there should not be an audible difference between the M200 and M400(?)

Again maybe I'm missing something but why is it so "of course" that they sound completely different? I think to understand that in a properly working DAC the AK4499EQ chip should not make an audible difference over the AK4497EQ as both are already operating way above the threshold of what we can hear

 

[Veri]

Completely different.. it's AK4499EQ vs. AK4497EQ
Both measure very well and any distortion is way over the threshold of human hearing as is the soundfloor.
Both also have a super straight frequency response so there shouldn't any difference there either.

Maybe I'm missing something here but when both chips are properly implemented and working well which the measurements suggests they are there should not be an audible difference between the M200 and M400(?)

No you are right. Both also output very healthy voltage levels. They are more similar than not. AK4499 measures (even) beter.

 

[Shahoff]

No you are right. Both also output very healthy voltage levels. They are more similar than not. AK4499 measures (even) beter.

In short , they sounds different, they do have audibly different sound signature. Some times even the same dac chip on differently implemented DACs sounds different. Try M500 and SU-9 as example. And as I mentioned before , fortunately music is not about measurements

 

[Veri]

In short , they sounds different, they do have audibly different sound signature. Some times even the same dac chip on differently implemented DACs sounds different. Try M500 and SU-9 as example. And as I mentioned before , fortunately music is not about measurements

This site however, is about science and measurements; and those have no proof for the claims you make.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...e-as-transparent-are-that-many-confused.9245/

 

[Shahoff]

Come on, are you really think that devices "measured" similarly are sounding the same as well ? Even I can hear the difference....

 

[Veri]

Come on, are you really think that devices "measured" similarly are sounding the same as well ? Even I can hear the difference....

Next you're going to tell us your partner/wife kept telling you how 'wonderful' everything sounded since you upgraded your DAC, that "even she can hear it". That is not proof in itself, haha. Have you ever done proper level matching? Perhaps a blind test where you did not know in advance which of your DACs you were listening to? There's proper controls to a proper test.. Give it a shot if you're that confident.

 

[Shahoff]

I have on the table SU-8 V2 on 9038 and M400. They both measured very well , but with the same source and the same amplifier they sounds VERY different. If you want to dive deep in math behind it , than you need good ADC with sample rate around 1mhz or more and than compare figures when you digitize outputs.

 

[Veri]

If you want to dive deep in math behind it , than you need good ADC with sample rate around 1mhz or more and than compare figures when you digitize outputs.

Or you use an audio analyser.... ??

 

[Shahoff]

Or you use an audio analyser.... ??

Depend on analizer. Something to compare waveforms , but also intermodulation , better visually. I am sure such equipment exists , but not sure if anybody of us can afford it.
Probably its time to start design something like this .....

Like 25 years ago I used to use sound card and some audio editor to prove to my friends that audio cables which going from AMP to speakers matters , especially for powerfully amp/speakers combination. I never heard at that time about high end audio cables , but I did prove that cable have to be thick enough to pass hi power to the speakers without distortion as a result of high resistance of thin cables. But after you reach threshold thickness - there is no difference ...