• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

MetalDaze

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2020
Messages
94
Likes
65
Hello everyone. New member but I have been reading the reviews and forums here for a while. I created this account to post my experience and welcome input since I've tried all I can think of. I have also emailed SMSL 3+ days ago and am still waiting for a response - let alone an acknowledgment they received my email. I bought an M300 MkII a couple of months ago right before everything with Covid went berserk. I already own an M100 but I saw Wolf's measurements of this unit and wanted the XLR balanced ability. Bluetooth I don't care much about either way.

I was using single ended only in my main system until I was finally able to make my balanced run worth while. The single ended RCA's are now connected to a DarkVoice 336se. The XLR outputs are used in my main 2 channel rig (outputs of DAC not used at the same time. An Input on my pre-amp is set for pre out of darkvoice acting as tube buffer so I can use them for my headphones or speakers.)

Primary stereo chain = Windows 10 HP Envy Tower 64bit 12gig Ram -->

Foobar2000- DSD: Wasapi (event) Via supplied USB --> SMSL M300 MkII XLR Out [fixed mode] --> Parasound P5 via XLR --> Parasound A21+ via XLR

When I was connected via RCA only the noise was not as noticeable. However now using XLR the noise is distinct, repeatable, pre amp volume dependent and very annoying. The sound is the same "click/pop" a few other threads here mention (SMSL SU-8?, M400 and Topping D90MQA) without resolution.

PCM = No Pop/Click

PCM --> DSD = No Pop/Click

DSD = Pop/Click Any interaction - play, pause, seek, skip, stop results in this unwanted sound.

DSD --> PCM = Pop/Click whether selected manually or allowed to play into next track on it's own.

I have tried everything I can think of:

-Up to date foobar2000 [V1.5.3] and components
-Up to date XMOS driver and version 4.47.0 TUS XMOS control panel
-Using ASIO instead of WASAPI for output
-All settings correct WRT Windows audio control panel (exclusive mode etc)
-Using different USB port on PC/Only having DAC plugged in, no peripheral components
-Only having XLR output be plugged in from DAC (physically removed RCA connections)
-Reloading older versions of foobar2000 and respective components
-Changing the buffer size in foobar2000 (buffer length, hardware buffer, read ahead for all file types)
-Enabling DOP when using DSD direct output under SACD in preferences with older component.
-DFF, DSF, or DSD ISO files all behave the same.

The only thing I have done which fixes this situation is enable DSD+PCM in foobar so the DAC only sees a PCM stream. Any time the DAC no longer receives a DSD input, it instantaneously reverts to the PCM filter. Resume your DSD playback and the LCD screen switches VERY quickly between the "High Res Audio" emblem and then to DSD. This happens anytime you interact with a DSD file being played, even while seeking within a currently playing song. Any time this reconstruction filter is switched between within the DAC itself, it seems as though the muting is not engaging correctly allowing for noise to be sent to the down stream components.

I've read this is an inherent trait when changing between PCM and PDM format but its up to the implementation and design of the equipment to halt it.

I'd rather not use software to convert DSD to PCM since the whole reason I bought the DAC along with XLR ability is native DSD playback (even if it really is DOP).

So I'm stuck. The DAC sounds good otherwise, no complaints about its performance while music is playing. I'd invest more (around 2x sadly) and get a Topping D90 but Topping is parented by SMSL and I have apprehension about spending twice the money just to end up with the same problem.
My main criteria for a DAC is AKM chipset if possible, USB input, PCM/DSD capability and XLR output. If budget wasn't such a factor I would just get an RME offering or Gustard and be done with it overlooking the chipset bias.

Since this seems to be a potential recurring issue within SMSL over multiple models and applications, I was hoping for some correspondence that it was something which could be fixed with a firmware update.

Yet there is silence from the manufacturer (unless you're playing a DSD file through one of their components). Ha! JK.. but seriously. It's frustrating.
 
OP
MetalDaze

MetalDaze

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2020
Messages
94
Likes
65
A little over a week now & I still haven't heard anything from the manufacturer.

Does anyone else using this model DAC (or otherwise) have any input or similar experience?

Thank you
 

RayDunzl

Grand Contributor
Central Scrutinizer
Joined
Mar 9, 2016
Messages
13,198
Likes
16,981
Location
Riverview FL
OP
MetalDaze

MetalDaze

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2020
Messages
94
Likes
65
"I don't DSD, but it seems to be a common complaint across various playback software and DACs.

https://www.google.com/search?q=dsd+pop

---

Maybe there's a few threads around here to review:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?search/6911691/&q=dsd+pop&o=relevance"


Thank you for the links. When I click the first one almost all of those come up in 'purple' on my browser. I've read all that I can until my eyes hurt. Similar with the links for ASR as well. I didn't want to start a new thread for a problem that's already been addressed or in repair.

The only common theme I can seem to find is SMSL.

But I agree it does appear there's a good number of people having this hiccup either using JRiver, Foobar or another player.

My problem is I can't say for sure exactly when this began happening. I only really started noticing it from the listening position once I switched to XLR - maybe 2 months after I received the DAC. Before that with RCA it was only noticeable on my headphones if I left the volume too high between track changes.

That said I do believe its a downstream issue within the DAC and not a software one. The noise has always been analog volume dependent.

I forgot to mention in the first post I also tired "Add Silence" Foobar2000 component which worked in the sense that it added silence. But once the data stream reaches the DAC for conversion after the inserted silence - "POP"
Same result from the Fade In/Out DSP Component.

I'm still hoping for a firmware update that can resolve the issue for all of their affected product line.
 
Last edited:

Kempeu

Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2019
Messages
17
Likes
7
Common issue. My Sanskrit Mkii also. Msg Mandy few months ago. No solution.
My friend who bought Gustard A18 no such prob
 
OP
MetalDaze

MetalDaze

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2020
Messages
94
Likes
65
Common issue. My Sanskrit Mkii also. Msg Mandy few months ago. No solution.
My friend who bought Gustard A18 no such prob

Sad it's the way it is, but I'm sort of relieved I'm not the only one. Still never got a response of any type from the manufacturer so I was left wondering if it was something in my setup chain perpetuating the problem.

The other day I tried again listening on my DarkVoice336 (NOS Sylvania 6SN7GTA & NOS TungSol 7236) with BD DT880's and the noise was still present from the single ended output of the DAC.

I've resigned to my fate and have set my sights on an RME-ADI 2 when my wallet catches up.
 

Hemi-Demon

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2019
Messages
435
Likes
514
Download a trial of Jriver and try to run it through a) direct mode or b) WDM mode, to see if that fixes the issue. Sometimes foobar and SMSL drivers don't work the best. I have quite a few of their devices that have exhibited this clicking issue, while using foobar using all the correct add on layers and required options in foobar setup. I am not saying to purchase the software, just giving you another angle to troubleshoot, while you pull your hair out.

Additionally download the topping driver package for the D90, open up the zip file to read the foobar setup guide. Then try and align your current foobar setup in alignment to the way topping recommends. Maybe it works better. Make sure you SACD and ASIOproxy and Wasapi components are the latest. Good luck.
 
OP
MetalDaze

MetalDaze

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2020
Messages
94
Likes
65
Download a trial of Jriver and try to run it through a) direct mode or b) WDM mode, to see if that fixes the issue. Sometimes foobar and SMSL drivers don't work the best. I have quite a few of their devices that have exhibited this clicking issue, while using foobar using all the correct add on layers and required options in foobar setup. I am not saying to purchase the software, just giving you another angle to troubleshoot, while you pull your hair out.

Additionally download the topping driver package for the D90, open up the zip file to read the foobar setup guide. Then try and align your current foobar setup in alignment to the way topping recommends. Maybe it works better. Make sure you SACD and ASIOproxy and Wasapi components are the latest. Good luck.


Thanks for the suggestion. I went ahead and tried the trial and set up the player a bit as if I would have, if I were migrating to that player. A fair chance all around. It took me a few minutes to figure out the settings. When It was set up in express mode it converted everything to PCM so there was no click. But the DAC stayed locked on Hi-Res (same as converting DSD -> PCM in Foobar basically).

I found the bit stream setting and enabled it for DSD. Then the DAC began displaying the DSD logo on playback. But there was still a pop :( Albeit lower in level. But I am currently listening on my Ohm Acoustics model i. The set of speakers previously are the model H from the same manufacturer. That could have impacted this.

Nonetheless the artifact was still there. Then I tried enabling "Play a little silence on DOP stop (removes click with some DACS)". No luck. Every time I turn up the volume and manually change a track it makes the same noise. Funny I don't notice it when seeking a DSD file in JRiver- even after changing the seeking setting to immediate and to remove the fade in/out. If that helped great, but I also want to know if the problem for me is still there in the raw. So I guess that's a small step in the right direction.

Admittedly though not enough to pay for the program.

The D90 driver set up was helpful and I wish SMSL had something similar when I first began setting up their DACs with my PC. But at this point I already have it all set up the way they suggest. All components and program updated to latest. The only difference was employing "USB DAC ASIO" from SMSL vs "ASIO4ALL" which is what I believe the D90 guide called for.
 
OP
MetalDaze

MetalDaze

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2020
Messages
94
Likes
65
Heard that “moode + RPi” with no pop.
You may refer @hifiamps

Is moodeaudio freeware for RPi only? Seems like back peddling from the DAC I already have - once the stream is playing at least.
 

Hemi-Demon

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2019
Messages
435
Likes
514
Thanks for the suggestion. I went ahead and tried the trial and set up the player a bit as if I would have, if I were migrating to that player. A fair chance all around. It took me a few minutes to figure out the settings. When It was set up in express mode it converted everything to PCM so there was no click. But the DAC stayed locked on Hi-Res (same as converting DSD -> PCM in Foobar basically).

I found the bit stream setting and enabled it for DSD. Then the DAC began displaying the DSD logo on playback. But there was still a pop :( Albeit lower in level. But I am currently listening on my Ohm Acoustics model i. The set of speakers previously are the model H from the same manufacturer. That could have impacted this.

Nonetheless the artifact was still there. Then I tried enabling "Play a little silence on DOP stop (removes click with some DACS)". No luck. Every time I turn up the volume and manually change a track it makes the same noise. Funny I don't notice it when seeking a DSD file in JRiver- even after changing the seeking setting to immediate and to remove the fade in/out. If that helped great, but I also want to know if the problem for me is still there in the raw. So I guess that's a small step in the right direction.

Admittedly though not enough to pay for the program.

The D90 driver set up was helpful and I wish SMSL had something similar when I first began setting up their DACs with my PC. But at this point I already have it all set up the way they suggest. All components and program updated to latest. The only difference was employing "USB DAC ASIO" from SMSL vs "ASIO4ALL" which is what I believe the D90 guide called for.


Can you return it, and just get a E30? The topping dac's that I have do not exhibit these issues with DSD playback. Sorry it did not work for you.
 
OP
MetalDaze

MetalDaze

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2020
Messages
94
Likes
65
Can you return it, and just get a E30? The topping dac's that I have do not exhibit these issues with DSD playback. Sorry it did not work for you.


Its alright. I appreciate your input, it was helpful.

I probably could return it. I bought it from Shenzenaudio on Amazon. And I would if the E30 had balanced outputs.

Since changing over to XLR for the first time maybe 2 months ago, my ears can't un-hear the increased dynamics and overall more ballsy sound. Not to mention common mode rejection which makes the already quite A21+ totally silent.

I will more than likely sell this DAC soon enough but I'm going to need it's replacement upgrade prior to that. I always thought 1K or more for a DAC was audiophile overkill, especially with all the offerings coming out in say the last 5 years or so and this site to test their manufacturers claim's.

But learning never stops. The downstream gear I use is damn good in my opinion. I thought I could get away with a $240 DAC.

Instead I got Digital -> Analog -> Coitus interruptus :p
 

Hemi-Demon

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2019
Messages
435
Likes
514
You can get a quality balanced dac for under $1,000. D90 (non mqa), Soncoz, A18 among others. Your issue is a driver/manufacturer issue, based on my past purchases from SMSL. I prefer balanced too, but its not required to clean up the particular issue you are having. I get wanting to feed the additional voltage to your amp through.
 
OP
MetalDaze

MetalDaze

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2020
Messages
94
Likes
65
I had thought about and mentioned earlier the D90 and the Gustard. It causes me to pause though since those companies are still S.M.S.L ShenzenAudio. And like you stated it very well may be a driver issue. I read the Xmos XU208 may be the probable culprit but that's the only driver I can find which works. And its everywhere unless the DAC's design team creates a driver in house specific for their unit.

Which is why I'm sort of throwing my hands up & looking to Germany for the DAC.
 
OP
MetalDaze

MetalDaze

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2020
Messages
94
Likes
65
While scanning the RME ADI-2 DAC FS manual I found this gem. I'm sure the performance would still be an increase from my current DAC. But I'm glad I found it before I spent the money on it, only to be stuck with the same issue.

I read on an IFI page somewhere that they recognize this behavior and suppress the noise. But RME states they intentionally avoid doing so in order to remain transparent to the source. I suppose if you have an SACD player and the physical media this isn't an issue? Since they say the freely available tracks are not 'clean', it must be a result of the way they are captured using the PS3 or Oppo & software method.

However for me it is not "low level". If I have the volume at 12'oclock and an album finishes w/o reducing the pre amp volume- the noise is jarring. Disturbingly loud in some events. Usually much louder than the level of music which was just playing.

DSD iso, DSF & DFF files all exhibit this for me one way or another. In the future I'll have to purchase a DSD download from somewhere for the purpose of testing, and tap a friend who can send me the same thing as an ISO to see if it really is a result of 'an unclean rip.'

In the meantime I've been treating DSD playback like vinyl. Volume down at the start, don't futz with track changes, volume down at the end (most times). I love the way it sounds. But right now, its a real pain in the ass.
 

Attachments

  • RME.png
    RME.png
    486.3 KB · Views: 191
OP
MetalDaze

MetalDaze

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2020
Messages
94
Likes
65
Thought I would post back an update for anyone interested or experiencing something similar.

In the interest of science, & digesting what the RME manual states about DSD files & rips I conducted an experiment. I wanted to try this for myself and potentially save some money *(Spoiler, I didn't)*.

I bought the DSD64 download of Boston, "Boston" (Their first album) which I didn't previously have, from a well known website. I then had a friend create a rip for me from the physical media he has of the same release.

Both the created rip, as well as the official purchased download, exhibited the same problem previously mentioned when played through the M300mkII.

Since then I purchased an RME ADI 2 DAC fs. I've had it for a while and have been familiarizing myself with it. But when it was first installed, it didn't take more than a few minutes after set up to realize this unwanted noise issue was basically no more.

At first I thought It was completely eliminated. After a couple days worth of listening, especially through headphones, I could still hear a faint click/pop. Sometimes at the start, and almost always at the completion of a DSD file. Either through change of track naturally to PCM or the end of an album. This aligns with the text from the manual. Again it was still occurring with both rips & official downloads. But any other interaction (seek, skip, pause etc.) which previously would result in the very loud, disturbing pop noises - are dead silent.

The big difference where the noise still occurs is that, using the RME, its so low I literally have to turn the volume up on my preamp or on the RME headphone output & listen for it. Both my fiancé & I agreed some pops were still there, however the difference in perceived volume is several orders of magnitude less. I'd definitely call that a win.

I also have to add that when I swapped out one DAC for the other, I changed nothing else. I used the power supply & USB cable supplied by RME for their unit. The USB cable went into the same port the SMSL came out of. The XLR and RCA connections for the output to my system remained unchanged. As did the physical location of the DAC. I even plugged the RME's power supply into the same outlet the SMSL used. I downloaded the drivers from RME's website once the unit was recognized by my PC, restarted the computer and was off to the races. It was as painless as assembling a PB&J sandwich.

I never heard anything from smsl after reaching out, and never got the chance to try their DAC on a different machine or operating system. However, in my set up, being that all else remained the same except for the external connected device. I'd surmise it was indeed an issue with the device & or it's driver and my PC. The RME uses ASIO exclusively to be able to play DSD content. But again, previously no matter what output I used (WASAPI or ASIO) with the other DAC it always gave me the same problem.

TL;DR the RME (for it's price) is a superior unit in regard to function, features & convenience. For the price the SMSL hits many of the marks but not as well. Aside from minimizing unwanted noises during file playback I wasn't expecting much of a difference in sound quality. Both devices measure very well, albeit the RME measures better. But in that regard it shows. The M300MkII was a great DAC minus it's hiccups. But the exacting precision and quality of untainted musical bliss that comes out of the RME is stunning. On both line out and headphone out using Beyer dynamic DT880 600 ohm (high output in RME engaged) it sounds effortless, micro detail oriented and as clean as I believe I've ever heard my music library.

I know there is an RME rep around somewhere in this forum, so I have to say to him/her & the company, Thank You!
The price of entry (for me) was pretty high. But the feature set and uncompromised sound quality means I won't be needing another DAC/Solid State headphone amp for a very long time. If ever.

Not to mention the manual which gives more information than you can imagine. Not only about their DAC but also your connected PC or MAC, & what you can do to improve your possibility of getting the absolute best sound. To that I say:

Prost!
 
Last edited:

SMSL-Mandy

Senior Member
Audio Company
Joined
Aug 31, 2018
Messages
304
Likes
688
OP
MetalDaze

MetalDaze

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2020
Messages
94
Likes
65
Hi SMSL-Mandy, thank you for the reply.

I am very familiar with Foobar200, it's set up and repository of components to play various types of audio files. Your links echo what other members have already posted, as an approach to relieve my DSD playback issue for your device. That of which I had already exhausted several times. The posted tutorial steps were already followed, enacted, and cited by me here in this thread.

I waited 3 days for a reply before posting here asking other forum members for suggestions since I had run out of ideas.

Your response would be better received if it contained new information, & was sent 3 months ago to my email where I originally inquired about my issue.
 

eXistenZ78

Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2020
Messages
7
Likes
3
Hi everyone

I have te same POP problem on DSD playback with my M300 MkII, the amp is an SMSL SA300, and the source is a Synology NAS (DS220j) connected to the DAC via USB. So the Foobar solution is not an option for me.

I also have a Sanskrit 10th MkII connected to a mac with Audirvana, and no POP when playing DSD.
I will try to swap the DACs and will post the results.

But I have a question: This POP sound is just annoying, or it could ruin the speakers eventually?
 
OP
MetalDaze

MetalDaze

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2020
Messages
94
Likes
65
Hi everyone

I have te same POP problem on DSD playback with my M300 MkII, the amp is an SMSL SA300, and the source is a Synology NAS (DS220j) connected to the DAC via USB. So the Foobar solution is not an option for me.

I also have a Sanskrit 10th MkII connected to a mac with Audirvana, and no POP when playing DSD.
I will try to swap the DACs and will post the results.

But I have a question: This POP sound is just annoying, or it could ruin the speakers eventually?

Definitely try swapping the DAC and see if the problem is resolved where it was causing you issue before. And if the POP problem follows the MKII to where the Sanskrit was without any DSD playback problems. Then you'll have a better idea if its hardware related, or DAC related.

I never fully resolved this issue in my chain, barring switching the DAC to an ADI-2. However I'm almost positive it was a driver hardware issue for me.

The sound in my experience was certainly annoying, however it didn't do any damage to my speakers. That said the noise was in many instances much louder than the music content which was just playing before the POP. So be careful with your volume knob until you find a solution.
 
Top Bottom