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SMSL DA-8s compatible with SMSL P2 Linear PSU?

Dougey_Jones

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Hi Everyone,

Whole question is in the subject line, I’ve been unable to figure this out myself and was hoping someone could help me connect the dots. I have an ICE Power based SMSL DA-8s that I use as a PC desktop amp and wanted to know if I could upgrade my setup by using the newly released SMSL P2 Linear PSU. The connectors look right but I wanted to make sure the voltage and amperage is correct.

Thanks in advance.
 
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Dougey_Jones

Dougey_Jones

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Thank you!
 

jokan

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I have these which are available only in Japan by FX audio in conjunction with North Flat Japan. Please use google translate to read the article in English:
http://nfj2019.livedoor.blog/archives/9176061.html
https://store.shopping.yahoo.co.jp/nfj/h224.html
https://store.shopping.yahoo.co.jp/nfj/h198.html

I use 4 capacitor banks and one noise filter though the capacitor bank also has noise filtration built in. It made my speakers sound punchier across the entire range. Subjective, I know, but I can attest to the lower noise floor which probably helps bring out a punchier sound. By which I mean meatier bass and fuller vocals, much more analogue sounding over the standard adaptor. It's not difficult to assemble your own version of this as every part is labeled. NFJ FLAT takes FX-Audio product and upgrades the internals for better tone, and sound quality. They are very reputable in the DIY crowd over here. DM me if you want more information. They have limited runs of these items and they quickly sell out. They are rated to 35V so 24 is no issue at all.
 

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Dougey_Jones

Dougey_Jones

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Super, super cool solution.. Definitely checking this out, thank you!
 

jokan

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Super, super cool solution.. Definitely checking this out, thank you!

The device, especially the capacitor bank is a big improvement, the noise filter does help also. If you were able to translate the article, you'll notice this is like version 2 or 3 of these devices. They are constantly searching for better capacitors that have less noise and are more stable in performance. Since they are rated for 35V, 24V will prolong the lifespan of the capacitors used also as an added bonus. You actually only need 2 capacitor banks and one noise filter, 4 capacitor banks actually introduces or induces noise from the rapid charging and discharging of the capacitors. NOT that I can hear it. Right now they have both the capacitor banks, and the noise filters in stock, they do not have the case in stock which is just acrylic sheets and plastic standoffs. Like I said, it's relatively simple to build one yourself. Let me know if I can be of help. NFJ FLAT has a facebook page. I don't have facebook anymore but they have announcements on their page. They also inventory the Peerless built 4" woofer used by the Apple HomePod. They work in small sealed enclosures and have something in the order of 20mm XMax. I have 6 of them in total. AliExpress charges double for them! NFJ also has the beam tweeters in stock also. They just don't have the box itself or the DSP that's built in to the amplifier. I will be measuring the woofer to get the real thiel small parameters so I can build a proper enclosure for them. This will have to wait a month since I just bought the SMSL DA-9!

I'll let you in on another thing about the infeneon chip that the amplifier uses. It's a subsidiary of International Rectifier Company, and they are the company that makes the Amplifier Chips for a Japanese Ultra High End company called SPEC CORP.

https://spec-corp.jp/index.html I did most of their technical translation from their Japanese documents into English. They forced me to use some Japanese-English which I hated them for, but it was a good paying gig. They have now co-opted my writing style and continued on making many mistakes but they still get their point across. Whereas the DA8s and DA9 only achieve a maximum of 92% efficiency, SPEC is upwards of 98% but they have a tonne of proprietary designs. They even use a coating developed for NASA to reduce EMI!

My point is that Infeneon/IRC makes a damned good sounding Class-D PWM amplifier chip. They really don't sound cool and dry compared to a comparable ICEpower circuit that has many more parts. You have a good amplifier in the DA-8s. It's not rated highly probably due to the price point but I believe it's foolhardy to dismiss the amplifier topology.

Cheers, have a good one!

Oh my avatar shows the SPEC Corp Ruby Mica which can only be found in the Himalayas and the tiny resistor is an out of production VISHAY 0.01% tolerance part. I use it for my Zobel circuit. After 2 years, the Ruby Mica has finally settled down and it'll only get better from here on. In Japan there is almost no Mid-Fi anymore. Anything that is affordable uses ICEpower or at best uses Hypex, not NCore but those amplifiers aren't selling because it hits at over $1300 for just stereo sound. Most people are using bluetooth speakers here and the market is huge for them. If only the Japanese would stop being racist and accept that Chinese companies like SMSL actually keep improving their product each generation, the stigma would go away and people would buy them in droves. Enjoy your DA-8s. Dim the screen as it's probably the first thing to break. OLED screens don't last long.
 
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Dougey_Jones

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I didn't allude to this in my OP, but since you know so much about the DA-8s and DA-9 maybe you'll be able to help me out here. I'm piecing together a Hi-Fi setup for some dear friends of mine that will perform double duty as both a Stereo and 2.0 Home Theater setup. The speakers are Vandersteen Model 2CE, and have a quite challenging impedance curve, which I thought the ICE Power amp would be fine with (80w x 2 into 4ohms) @ 92% efficiency. But prior to installing the setup in their home I decided to stress test the setup at high volume for a few hours first, and to my surprise, the power brick that came with the DA-8s (24v 6.5a) LITERALLY went up in smoke. Smoke came out of the brick and it died. The DA-8s itself is fine, and I ordered a 24v 10a brick off of AliExpress which works, but I haven't stress tested it yet. Am I going to have a repeat of that experience with this second brick?

If I do, any suggestions on what I should replace it with so that this doesn't keep happening? I want the system to be reliable for them..
 

jokan

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Sorry for going off topic, but you seemed interested in improving the functionality of the DA-8s, my bad. Sometimes going off topic can bring more information.

Vanedersteen Model 2CE were definitely on the upper end of "Mid-Fi" back in the day. At approximately $1400 in the 90's. That wasn't an inexpensive speaker by any means. I highly doubt that the power brick was at fault for "blowing up". I would suspect that some of the internal capacitors (most likely electrolytic) have gone past their life expectancy. This could easily cause unwanted voltage to seep into the brick. Just so you know, one of the most famous Electrolytic capacitor companies in the world, Nichicon advise and put a production date on their parts and recommend that regardless of use, 10 years is the maximum lifetime before they start to break down just sitting on a shelf waiting to be sold. They can leak, they can explode, or they can short circuit. You'll most likely find them in the woofer section of the crossover, but just as easily they can be in the mids and in the tweeter network. It's a cost cutting measure. I would take a meter to the speaker to check the impedance first of the speakers as a whole, then I would take it apart and use an LCR meter to measure the capacitance of each capacitor which requires removal of each component, do this one at a time so you don't wind up with a mess of parts on the floor. Class-D amplifiers in general are very sensitive to reverse inputs of any sort, or small leaks of foreign voltage that can somehow come across the signal cables.

Power bricks are fairly robustly built. Upping the amperage can be a good thing but you can alternately overload the input capability of the chipset on the amplifier. You are in that horrible position of trying to help revive an older speaker that simply isn't designed for use with Class-D amplification. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I think that this isn't going to sort things out for you. I am suspicious of the speakers themselves first, especially the crossover network. Something probably leaked or failed. The little NFJ power filters use capacitors with parts that protect against the weaknesses of Class-D topology. Also the older generation of speakers were designed to be a lot looser in their pistonic movement. They had low damping factor in mind. Rotel amplifiers from that era had something like 180 for damping factor which is the ability for the amplifier to control the cones movement. Today's Class D amplifiers easily double that number which may seem good but it requires a total rethink of how to design a loudspeaker. The Vandersteens were a sensitive speaker of around 90db/watt. Today's speakers are around 87db/watt. Those 3decibles are the same to the amplifier as outputting double the sound just to play at the same output volume. For the human ear to hear something to be twice as loud, you need a 10db increase, or in this case 100db. 100db is literally deafening in a moderately sized living room.

I'm sorry Dougey, there are no easy answers to solve your problem. There's a reason why I have multiple Class-D amplifiers, and 2 valve amplifiers. Valve amplifiers have little to no damping factor. In fact my most powerful one has a damping factor of 8. It can drive a modern speaker without issues because I spent over 3k in modifying the amplifier to play as clean and with as much authority as I could get out of the amplifier. My smaller amplifier is capable of 5watts per channel, but that is tube power so it's actually able to play louder than my neighbours would like. And it's time for me to replace many of the electrolytic capacitors inside that amplifier.

I'm sorry to say this but I think your speakers need some surgery. Alternatively buy some ultra cheap current day speakers for less than $100 bucks and see if the problem persists. If it doesn't, which I suspect it won't, then you have your culprit. The bricks have internal capacitors and also inductors or coils which can literally die if the protective capacitor fails.

I think you've found yourself in that generational gap where amplifier technology and loudspeaker technology no longer matches. In Japan, there are a tonne, a literal tonne of used, good or great old transistor based amplifiers being sold at used electronics stores everywhere as the technology simply doesn't work with modern speakers well. The older speakers can work, but not to their optimum.

I'm sorry. I would try cheap speakers and pay around $100 to see if the same issue arises, if not replace the speakers or repair them. Expect to spend time and money to repair the old speakers. If indeed it's solved by the brick that you ordered then that's great! One word of caution would be to keep a close eye on it, hold it to see how much heat it's accumulating. Luke warm is ok, anything above that is not. Also lookout for deformation from heat.

If all else fails, replace everything to 2021 equipment. I have a pair of speakers from 1995 that are still absolutely fine shockingly. I opened everything up and found out that every single component still measured to spec, and nothing was leaking or expanding (electrolytic capacitors sometimes expand and blow up and ooze out their chemicals, not fun as it's caustic stuff).

Happy hunting. And sorry for going so far off topic. But going off topic was necessary for you to get to the bottom of this problem you had. This is what forums are for, to help others. This is not Twitter, or Facebook. Helping is a human thing. I don't know everything, but I know enough to get by after 29 years in the Hi-Fi industry. And yes, I sold Vandersteen speakers back in the day. I liked them personally!

SORRY THIS WAS SO LONG! I hope you have gained an understanding of what you are likely experiencing. I had an ICEpower TEAC fail on me and it would make ticking sounds above a certain level. It turned out my phonostage had semi-failed and was backfeeding 12Volts into the RCA's intermittently. The same phonostage connected to one of my tube amps made no issue of this backfeed. Class-D is sensitive. No amount of protective circuitry would have saved that amplifier. Fortunately I was able to sell it at 1/3rd the purchase price to the used electronics store as "Junk parts" and it was gone the next week, someone had bought it! The whole thing was fried internally!

Wish you luck in your endeavor. I'm sure you'll figure out a solution.
Cheers.
 

jokan

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I was able to find this picture of the crossover, most likely similar if not the same as your speakers internal parts. I immediately see 5 electrolytic capacitors, 8 possibly film capacitors, 9 resistors, an L-Pad which is similar to a volume control so you can cut the treble or bass as you like, I also see a transformer, 3 inductors (coils). Tracking down which part failed will require desoldering each part, starting with the most accessible part, then you need an LCR meter which you can purchase off Amazon for $30-50 for a consumer grade one. I think it's a job that is not worth doing personally as the chances of damaging the old circuit board is extremely high even with a variable temperature soldering iron. Unless you can find a rebuilt one, or purchase them from Vandersteen as new items. This job would take me 2-3 days a piece. I personally bill out at $100/an hour with my translation job. This is far more mentally exhausting work and I love soldering! Best of luck!
 

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jokan

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did a bit more digging for you. Be sure that you have the connections correct on the back panel of the speaker. My DA-8s has been playing at a 2.7 nominal impedance for years with no issues, but if you somehow mess up the wiring you could have a short. I would guess that resistors blew up and took out some capacitors along the way. Wire wound resistors are pennies in bulk and they are prone to failure. vibration gets them very easily.
 

jokan

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One last thing before I forget, a lack of power as in 20watts into an 8ohm load will kill a speaker when the amplifier is driven into clipping which is when the audio signal no longer forms a wave but has flat top and bottoms when you look at a sine wave. Those speakers in full working order love power. I'm talking 2-300 watts of RMS power, not that you'll use it but with a solid state amplifier, the more power the less likely you are to drive them into clipping. Clipping is the worst thing for any speaker of any generation. And your speakers were definitely designed for amplifiers with a sub 200 damping factor. Which is why a lot of people had success with tube amplifiers, and higher powered transistor amplifiers. Lots of curve balls to navigate, I still think trying a cheap $100 pair of speakers would point you in the right direction. With the DA-8s running them. If there's no problem with new cheap speakers, you know the amp isn't at fault. Happy hunting!
 
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