SMSL D400ES and SMSL D400Ex

[Veri]

Why do you even comment on DAC forums if they've all sounded exactly the same for the last 15 years. I gave my actual experience with the dac

-This is an audio science forum in general, not a DAC forum. Or do you mean the specific category, what about it?
-Proper made old DACs that resolve 16 bits transparently are probably sufficient for most people's use cases...
While some newly made DACs distort like hell and don't reach 96dB SNR at all. That's why DAC measurements can still be quite valuable!
These new modern TOTL DACs are so hard into measurebating territory that indeed, there's not much point besides technical excellence..

About listening experience, it's a dac, what do you expect of it? If you really want to argue about these things there's over 200 pages worth of it over here --->

Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

I know there are people out there that think cables affect sound, which is much worse, but there really is no response to something like that, but just to smile and nod. But what about people who talk about DACS as if they were headphone drivers or speakers, and talk about the SOUNDSTAGE...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Ooof, so everyone needs to get onboard the greater forum narrative if you want to post here?

Depending on how extraordinary the claims, you will just find questioning, pushback or redirection to other places. If that's not to your tastes, yes. Suit yourself. It doesn't matter if someone is a "Master Contributor" or not that just means someone has been on this forum for a while..

 

[jaraheel]

I'm not experiencing any weird output power issues. Seems to be mostly in line with what my Topping d70s was outputting. Volume knobs are at about the same position on my amps. Maybe the tonality of the AKM DAC vs. ESS on the D90SE is what you're hearing and perceiving as lower volume?

Haha! No my friend, there is a very measurable difference in volume from all of my headphones. The tonality difference can't possibly make up for that much volume loss

 

[Veri]

Haha! No my friend, there is a very measurable difference in volume from all of my headphones. The tonality difference can't possibly make up for that much volume loss

Note that HiFindingnemo could have no impedance matching issue, while if you do have such an issue it can easily explain these things.
The amplifier's input impedance will matter, matched with D400 output impedance. I hope if @amirm gets one he measures it!

 

[jaraheel]

Reminds me a not-that-old story...
I bet $10 on high output impedance, like the last high end AKM DAC from SMSL.

I have owned the M400 too before I switched to D90SE. That did not have nearly this much low volume...

 

[jaraheel]

Note that HiFindingnemo could have no impedance matching issue, while if you do have such an issue it can easily explain these things.
The amplifier's input impedance will matter, matched with D400 output impedance. I hope if @amirm gets one he measures it!

Yup that makes sense. I already contacted Apos for a replacement…

 

[BR52]

I have owned the M400 too before I switched to D90SE. That did not have nearly this much low volume..

If we follow the idea with voltage drop caused by the high output impedance, you have to measure by a fixed level with and without the out plugged load. The voltage drop with load should be only few mV only. The ratio between output impedance and input impedance of the load should be greater 10.

 

[BR52]

Yup that makes sense. I already contacted Apos for a replacement…

Please let us know if the replacement was successful. Then our theory was wrong, and your unit was defective.
If not, it's a design problem and the DAC is not usable for some loads.

 

[Gradius]

AK4499EX isn't bad, but not THAT great. Perhaps we were hoping for too much?

 

[jaraheel]

Please let us know if the replacement was successful. Then our theory was wrong, and your unit was defective.
If not, it's a design problem and the DAC is not usable for some loads.

Would do. Though @MadMaxx said that there wasn't any loss in volume levels for them..

 

[Rover]

This forum is technical and therefore without measuring the level one should not believe the auditory analysis that the level is quieter.

 

[BR52]

AK4499EX isn't bad, but not THAT great. Perhaps we were hoping for too much?

This is the first implementation tested now. I guess the design team has to learn. The chip is only an important part of the complete design. The things around (few hundred parts) is the engineering task, to squeeze out the max performance of a central chip. It's like a pc, the power of a given CPU is dominated by the mother board and how it's designed. It's to early to say "but not THAT great". Specially, the I/V section was in the past a problem. It seems it's still existing.

 

[neukrisz]

The matching of D400EX output and A90 / A90 Discrete input should be fine theoretically, because the ratio of output/input impedances is more than x8/x10 times.
Based on the given data from Mandy@SMSL:
"The output impedance of D400ex rca and xlr are 100Ω.
m400 and d2 are same, rca is 100Ω，xlr is 320Ω"

This is the main reason why I ordered the D400EX for replacing my M400 and VMV D2...
I'd like to use my A90 Discrete (at least...)

The used 9pcs dual OPA in the D400EX is the key.
Based on my theory 3pcs for the RCA, 3+3pcs for the XLR. It should contains a buffer stage before the signals have left the output terminals. The output impedances can be much lower compared with the OPA topology of the M400/D2

 

[BR52]

The matching of D400EX output and A90 / A90 Discrete input should be fine theoretically, because the ratio of output/input impedances is more than x8/x10 times.
Based on the given data from Mandy@SMSL:
"The output impedance of D400ex rca and xlr are 100Ω.
m400 and d2 are same, rca is 100Ω，xlr is 320Ω"

This is the main reason why I ordered the D400EX for replacing my M400 and VMV D2...
I'd like to use my A90 Discrete (at least...)

The used 9pcs dual OPA in the D400EX is the key.
Based on my theory 3pcs for the RCA, 3+3pcs for the XLR. It should contains a buffer stage before the signals have left the output terminals. The output impedances can be much lower compared with the OPA topology of the M400/D2

OK, if the output impedance is correct, you are right. Unfortunately, it was not in the data sheet and was the cause of our speculation mentioned before.

 

[pickyAudiophile]

I guess the design team has to learn.

They do have to learn. Most importantly, not to later cripple their devices with broken firmware. The worst thing is when broken firmware is implemented as factory default with later batches of production - and there's just no way to roll it back by unlucky later buyers affected.
Like they screwed it up with the D300 (so far, hope persists...). https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...l-d300-review-balanced-dac.28919/post-1381050

 

[jaraheel]

An aside: Apos hasn’t been responsive for around five days now. Has anyone else recently contacted there?

 

[MadMaxx]

An aside: Apos hasn’t been responsive for around five days now. Has anyone else recently contacted there?

That's surprising. I've always gotten quick and friendly responses from Apos, even with a return I needed to process.

 

[jaraheel]

That's surprising. I've always gotten quick and friendly responses from Apos, even with a return I needed to process.

yes this is the first time it has happened to me. I have been sending messages to them on their online chat. Previously they would take a day at max to reply. I opened up a support case on their website, and it's like a blackout. Will someone be kind enough to try and reach them and see if this is just me or it is the same with others too? Have they gone on an undeclared vacation?

 

[MadMaxx]

yes this is the first time it has happened to me. I have been sending messages to them on their online chat. Previously they would take a day at max to reply. I opened up a support case on their website, and it's like a blackout. Will someone be kind enough to try and reach them and see if this is just me or it is the same with others too? Have they gone on an undeclared vacation?

When I've had to contact Apos, I replied to the email of my order number. Give that a try.

 

[jaraheel]

When I've had to contact Apos, I replied to the email of my order number. Give that a try.

Bob was on a vacation and they were probably having some staffing and internet issues. Apos are back to being themselves, i.e. awesome! . The replacement should be here in a week or so, then I shall report how things are..

 

[larssa]

I just received the SMSL D400EX from SoundImport and this unit also has volume problem. Streaming from Tidal using USB from a Mac and on some tracks very low volume and on others normal. Could not see that it is related to MQA or PCM tracks. When I switch to a RME ADI 2 all tracks has the same volume.
Very strange. I will return this unit for a refound.