SMSL D1 - ROHM DAC for everyone

[Roland68]

LIke I say - find measurements. If you can't find measurements for one, discount it. As long as at least one has good measurements, then you know it is going to sound audibly perfect (noise and distortion lower than human hearing can detect)

If more than one has good measurements - then pick based on features you want/need, and price. They will sound the same.


In this case:

SMSL PS200 Budget DAC Review

This is a review and measurements of the SMSL PS200 stereo budget DAC. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $89.99. The unit comes in a lightweight plastic package which allows my rather stiff RCA test cables to yank on it. A simple toggle switch changes inputs. There is an indicator...

www.audiosciencereview.com

PS 200 audibly perfect

Review and Measurements of SMSL VMV D1 DAC

This is a review and detailed measurements of SMSL VMV D1 DAC. It is on a kind loan from a forum member. It retails for USD $1,299 including free shipping on Amazon. It is a super hefty unit, far more than you can imagine from its small enclosure: The box on the left which is permanently...

www.audiosciencereview.com

D1 - audibly perfect but with some inaudible flaws



Assuming you meean SU1 not S1:

SMSL SU-1 Stereo DAC Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the SMSL SU-1 stereo USB DAC. It was arranged to be sent to me by shenzhenaudio from the company and costs US $79.99. Despite its simplicity, the SU-1 manages to look elegant with nice fonts and LED indicators for different inputs. Back panel has...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Audibly prefect.


(A good search to use is : (brand and name of dac) site:audiosciencereview.com)


eg
smsl s1 site:audiosciencereview.com

SMSL PS200 Budget DAC Review

This is a review and measurements of the SMSL PS200 stereo budget DAC. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $89.99. The unit comes in a lightweight plastic package which allows my rather stiff RCA test cables to yank on it. A simple toggle switch changes inputs. There is an indicator...

www.audiosciencereview.com

SMSL SU-1 Stereo DAC Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the SMSL SU-1 stereo USB DAC. It was arranged to be sent to me by shenzhenaudio from the company and costs US $79.99. Despite its simplicity, the SU-1 manages to look elegant with nice fonts and LED indicators for different inputs. Back panel has...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Review and Measurements of SMSL VMV D1 DAC

This is a review and detailed measurements of SMSL VMV D1 DAC. It is on a kind loan from a forum member. It retails for USD $1,299 including free shipping on Amazon. It is a super hefty unit, far more than you can imagine from its small enclosure: The box on the left which is permanently...

www.audiosciencereview.com

JSmith

Guys, the VMV D1 and the D1 Rohm DAC have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

 

[Roland68]

OK, but how can I know the performance of all three? I'd have to buy all three. If the chip doesn't matter, nor does the year of manufacture, what should I consider when choosing ?

You are currently racking your brain over things that have no actual impact in the real world.
The measured values all fall within a range where it has long since become impossible to hear any difference. Given absolutely identical volume levels and a truly blind comparison, you won't be able to distinguish between these three DACs—not even by the slightest nuance; we have tested this often enough.
Although I own DACs that measure better than, say, the D1 Rohm—such as the DO400 or the D70 Pro SABRE (which ranks among the top 5 best-measuring DACs on ASR)—I still listen to most of my music through the D1 Rohm.

In reality, factors like reliability, trouble-free operation, and freedom from noise (clicks, crackles, etc.) are far more important than having measured values that are a few points higher.

No matter which of these DACs you choose, any one of them will sound good; the issue regarding the measured values exists only in your head, not in reality.

 

[Silvestrus]

There are differences. SU1 is better sounding DAC than D1. I had both of them.

 

[JSmith]

SU1 is better sounding DAC than D1

JSmith

 

[antcollinet]

There are differences. SU1 is better sounding DAC than D1. I had both of them.

Vanishingly unlikely that the differences you perceived came from the sound reaching your ears. Almost certain they came from your perceptive biases. The same biases that you share with all humans.

 

[Silvestrus]

Vanishingly unlikely that the differences you perceived came from the sound reaching your ears. Almost certain they came from your perceptive biases. The same biases that you share with all humans.

Why should I be biased here? Same two little black boxes wih the same price. Nothing that would make me biased. Just sharing my listening experience. I happilly lived with SU1 some time. I have returned D1 after couple of days.

 

[john61ct]

Our unconscious is unknown, a mystery.

You say "they sound different" what you mean is "my brain gave me different perception"

 

[EXDJF]

Our unconscious is unknown, a mystery.

You say "they sound different" what you mean is "my brain gave me different perception"

I disagree.
Leaving aside those who, at a certain age, no longer hear high frequencies or not as well as they used to (which is normal and physiological), the differences between an SU-1 and a D1, even if subtle, exist, just as the timbral differences between an AKM and an ES Sabre exist, and they are very audible if you have a trained ear for music.

 

[aagstn]

I disagree.
Leaving aside those who, at a certain age, no longer hear high frequencies or not as well as they used to (which is normal and physiological), the differences between an SU-1 and a D1, even if subtle, exist, just as the timbral differences between an AKM and an ES Sabre exist, and they are very audible if you have a trained ear for music.

I don't doubt you hear a difference. I just bet it has more to do with your trained eyes and trained expectations for music than you realize.

 

[EXDJF]

I don't doubt you hear a difference. I just bet it has more to do with your trained eyes and trained expectations for music than you realize.

I think, however, that people over 45 often can't hear the 12kHz to 20kHz range well. Obviously, in that case, they become similar, and not even that much if we consider the AKM's fuller bass.

Those who are younger and can hear the entire frequency range will be better able to tell you.

can I hear the differences in the chips here :

 

[JSmith]

the entire frequency range

... is captured in the measurements.

Further;

Notification about “External YouTube Video Link Dropping”

Forum Wide Notification: NOTE: The updated version of this policy is posted in the site Terms and Rules See the above before posting any comments or reporting. ====== below is maintained for reference ====== We are strongly discouraging random YouTube and similar “Video links” being posted...

www.audiosciencereview.com

JSmith

 

[john61ct]

If you set up a proper double-blind level-matched ABX test with enough runs that statistically proved it, then we would believe your extraordinary assertions.

Until then the default stance of this community is hooey

 

[antcollinet]

Why should I be biased here? Same two little black boxes wih the same price. Nothing that would make me biased. Just sharing my listening experience. I happilly lived with SU1 some time. I have returned D1 after couple of days.

Perceptive bias - not what you think of as prejudice. We all have them - it is how our senses work. What we hear (Or see) is pre-filtered (actually changed) by what we see, what we know, what we believe. Every experience we've ever had. Including your belief that dacs sound different.

It is also what causes every optical or auditory illusion you have ever seen or heard.

Whereas what we know about those two little black boxes - from the science, engineering and measurements - is that any differences (there is only noise, distortion and frequency response) are well below the level that any human can hear.

 

[antcollinet]

I think, however, that people over 45 often can't hear the 12kHz to 20kHz range well. Obviously, in that case, they become similar, and not even that much if we consider the AKM's fuller bass.

Those who are younger and can hear the entire frequency range will be better able to tell you.

can I hear the differences in the chips here :

A DAC has one, and only one job, and that is to accurately convert the digital representation of music from the source into an analog representation of that music. Well measuring DACS do that with inaudible levels of noise and distortion, and with flat frequency response in the audible band.

(Note, this is inaudible for all humans - not just those "over 45").

In other words the analogue output is (audibly) a perfect representation of the digitally encoded music. Any defects are below the level any human ear can detect.

If two DACS both achieve this (and well measuring DACS do, including those we are discussing here) then the analog signal from both must be identical within audible limits. By definition, they must sound the same.

Yet on the other hand we know that our hearing is subject to perceptive bias (call it cognitive bias, or expectation bias if you like). What we hear is impacted by what we know, what we believe, how we feel, our life experiences, what we see etc etc. No-one is immune to this if they are human - it is how we are built. In fact we would be unable to function if our senses were not filtered by our unconscious brain. Everyone is subject to this, it happens at the unconscious level, and it is not possible to avoid it - even when we are aware it is happening.

So when we see someone state that they hear differences between DACs where the engineering, science and measurements all tell us that is impossible or vanishingly unlikely - do we just take the statement at face value - or do we attribute it to the fact that the listener is being fooled by his (humanities) very fallible auditory system?



Plus what @JSmith said - please comply with the terms you agreed to when you signed up. There is a convenient example by yours truly in the OP at.

Notification about “External YouTube Video Link Dropping”

Forum Wide Notification: NOTE: The updated version of this policy is posted in the site Terms and Rules See the above before posting any comments or reporting. ====== below is maintained for reference ====== We are strongly discouraging random YouTube and similar “Video links” being posted...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[RandomEar]

I think, however, that people over 45 often can't hear the 12kHz to 20kHz range well. Obviously, in that case, they become similar, and not even that much if we consider the AKM's fuller bass.

Those who are younger and can hear the entire frequency range will be better able to tell you.

can I hear the differences in the chips here :

You cannot compare audio devices using YouTube videos. Ever. This is not a useful test or comparison, it's just a click bait video to make money.

Think one second what the signal chain looks like in this case: Their source with their settings including possible EQ or DSP -> their DAC with their settings -> their amp -> their ADC and settings -> their mastering process including possible EQ and DSP -> YouTube compression -> your DAC and settings -> your amp -> your speakers + room.

Apart from the fact that it's stupid to compare DACs with another DAC in the chain, there could be a million things different between the captures. The YouTuber could alter their settings (knowingly or not) or the DAC volume could be different by more than 0.2 dB. All of which would result in a vastly bigger measured difference than that between DACs.

This is not about your hearing, this is not about age, this is just not a valid or even remotely useful comparison in any way. In addition, measurement instruments are orders of magnitude better than your hearing or mine, there is absolutely no contest. And the instruments tell us that the differences are well below the audible threshold here. Trivial changes like you describe (brighter treble) would show up in measurements instantly and well before you hear anything at all.

 

[john61ct]

Also in Dr Toole's long running trials, the more "professional" the listener, e.g. musicians the less accuracy / transparency / fidelity to source aligned with the statistical group consensus on subjective preference.

Most likely from hearing damage, but possibly just "more quirky" as a class...

Of course "this system pleases me" is the ultimate decider, just don't try to claim it's an objective decision that others here should pay any attention to.

 

[Roland68]

I disagree.
Leaving aside those who, at a certain age, no longer hear high frequencies or not as well as they used to (which is normal and physiological), the differences between an SU-1 and a D1, even if subtle, exist, just as the timbral differences between an AKM and an ES Sabre exist, and they are very audible if you have a trained ear for music.

We have conducted hundreds of fully blind tests involving DACs—tests that were executed with the utmost rigor and with absolutely precise level matching.
Every guest we hosted—audiophiles, sound engineers, YouTubers, dealers, and manufacturers alike—who claimed they could distinguish between DACs that measure nearly identically based on the specific DAC chip used, failed 100% of the time. The same holds true for the audible difference between SMPS and transformer-based (linear) power supplies within these devices, or between digital and analog playback.

Prior to these blind sessions, we typically conducted a sighted listening round with the equipment; during that phase, the difference appeared to our guests to be like "night and day."
Most were so traumatized by this experience that they never returned.

Incidentally, we do have two control tests involving genuinely subtle audible differences—tests that, to date, every single guest has correctly identified during the blind listening sessions.
All of our guests possessed ears trained over decades and brought a wealth of experience to the table.

 

[EXDJF]

So, to cut a long story short, and if I understand correctly: do an SMSL SU-1, SMSL D1, or SMSL PS200 PRO have the same "sonic timbre" and are they indistinguishable with the same track and hi-fi system ?

Is that so ?

This is regardless of the measurements taken, which I find correct and accurate.

 

[antcollinet]

So, to cut a long story short, and if I understand correctly: do an SMSL SU-1, SMSL D1, or SMSL PS200 PRO have the same "sonic timbre" and are they indistinguishable with the same track and hi-fi system ?

Is that so ?

This is regardless of the measurements taken, which I find correct and accurate.

Yes.

 

[Roland68]

So, to cut a long story short, and if I understand correctly: do an SMSL SU-1, SMSL D1, or SMSL PS200 PRO have the same "sonic timbre" and are they indistinguishable with the same track and hi-fi system ?

Is that so ?

This is regardless of the measurements taken, which I find correct and accurate.

These are DACs, not DSPs.

If a DAC alters the timbre of sounds, then it is defective! How, technically speaking, is that even supposed to happen?
Do you even know what timbre is?
Please take some time to familiarize yourself with timbre, overtones, and formants. Once you have grasped those concepts, you will understand why such alterations simply cannot occur in a DAC.

Analog and digital music data consist of absolutely precise information, leaving no room for interpretation.
Therefore, if two DACs were to produce different data or results at their outputs—or even yield audibly different sounds—then something would be fundamentally wrong with at least one of the devices, and it could only be considered defective.