SME M2-9R vs Jelco TK-950S

[watchnerd]

I moved to unfussy CDs many years ago and called it a decade. Or two...

The ability to tweak to the nth degree is a blessing and a curse but after the initial fun unless you're retired and/or happy with listening to an album in an evening it gets old quick. Maybe just me...

Sadly, on weekdays, an album an evening is all I have time for. Often only 1/2 an album (one side).

My carts will last forever at this rate, as will my LPs.

 

[JJB70]

I think the comparative lack of measurement is at least partly why some hifi writers are so attached to vinyl. When some of them indulge in florid prose and wax lyrical about a piece of equipment in purely subjective terms there will usually be other writers and reviewers make measurements available which provide an objective counter balance. In the world of vinyl there isn't tat check (I know the dedicated subjectivists ignore it anyway) and so it is a part of audio which is more heavily dominated by subjectivity and people like Fremer can roam freely without being tripped up by somebody pointing out that a piece of gear they've just waxed lyrical about measures no better (or worse) than "mid fi" at 1/20 of the price.

 

[watchnerd]

I think the comparative lack of measurement is at least partly why some hifi writers are so attached to vinyl. When some of them indulge in florid prose and wax lyrical about a piece of equipment in purely subjective terms there will usually be other writers and reviewers make measurements available which provide an objective counter balance. In the world of vinyl there isn't tat check (I know the dedicated subjectivists ignore it anyway) and so it is a part of audio which is more heavily dominated by subjectivity and people like Fremer can roam freely without being tripped up by somebody pointing out that a piece of gear they've just waxed lyrical about measures no better (or worse) than "mid fi" at 1/20th the price.

I agree 100%.

One of the few bright spots is Miller Audio Research, which actually measures cartridges and tonearms. It's amedazing how many multi kilo buck cartridges have measurements that are no better than mid priced options, or are even mediocre.

This is why I think @amirm has a great opportunity to measure cartridges and tonearms in the vinyl resurgence, although I suspect his current test rig might make that tricky.

 

[restorer-john]

Consider Fremer doesn't even have a proper Wow and Flutter meter, let alone a Thorens Rumpel-Messkoppler.

 

[amirm]

This is why I think @amirm has a great opportunity to measure cartridges and tonearms in the vinyl resurgence, although I suspect his current test rig might make that tricky.

What do they use as far as test LP and transport?

 

[sergeauckland]

What do they use as far as test LP and transport?

Test LPs has been my biggest issue with testing vinyl. Proper frequency response LPs like the Decca, seem to be unobtainable except very rarely on eBay. The problem is that the Decca, and presumably all the others too, claim to be calibrated only for the first 5 plays, for anything above 10kHz due to wear. Do reviewers really have a stock of LPs they play 5 times then dispose of?

I generally use white or pink noise for frequency response measurements on vinyl, but again, it's unknown how white, how pink, and how much wear, so how accurate? Every cartridge I have measured seems to lack extreme HF, (above around 15-16kHz), so have to assume that's my records. Also, measuring W&F, it requires the LP to be perfectly centred, and some of my so-called test LPs certainly aren't, and how much W&F is there on the cutting lathe? That's never specified. Test tapes were far more precise than test LPs and measuring vinyl was for me always a hit and miss affair.
S

 

[Frank Dernie]

What do they use as far as test LP and transport?

I believe Miller uses direct excitation using a typical electromagnetic shaker rig used for vibration analysis of structures. That is probably why he publishes vertical and lateral data rather than left and right channel data.
His tonearm measurements show acceleration at the headshell from a lightweight accelerometer, iirc but I don't know how he excites them and to what extent, therefore, it is relevant.
Back in the day I used Bruel and Kjaer sweep frequency records as input for record player measurements and only looked at the cartridge output data reasoning that if a resonance somewhere in the system did not affect cartridge output its contribution was irrelevant.
As Serge wrote earlier these LPs were specified for 5 uses, though maybe with some cartridges more would be OK but how would one know?
Nothing like that seems to be available any more and since most vinyl fans seem to believe in fairies giving them accurate data would be pointless IMO.
The fans probably wouldn't believe any data showing how inferior the whole LP playing chain is anyway, and since the interaction between the various masses, compliances and supports is complex any measurement of an arm is meaningless since its performance is dependant on both the cartridge mounted on it and the turntable it is mounted on.

Fremer is a very experienced LP guy but reading his articles usually leaves me irritated by some incorrect comment attributed to the technical aspects. I wish he wouldn't write about the aspect he clearly doesn't understand and stick to the bit he does...

 

[watchnerd]

Test LPs has been my biggest issue with testing vinyl. Proper frequency response LPs like the Decca, seem to be unobtainable except very rarely on eBay. The problem is that the Decca, and presumably all the others too, claim to be calibrated only for the first 5 plays, for anything above 10kHz due to wear. Do reviewers really have a stock of LPs they play 5 times then dispose of?

I generally use white or pink noise for frequency response measurements on vinyl, but again, it's unknown how white, how pink, and how much wear, so how accurate? Every cartridge I have measured seems to lack extreme HF, (above around 15-16kHz), so have to assume that's my records. Also, measuring W&F, it requires the LP to be perfectly centred, and some of my so-called test LPs certainly aren't, and how much W&F is there on the cutting lathe? That's never specified. Test tapes were far more precise than test LPs and measuring vinyl was for me always a hit and miss affair.
S

I have a Clear Audio 'cartridge breakin" LP that has like 10 tracks per side of pink noise in endless grooves.

Even if it's not flawless, there is such a lack of test data that almost anything would be more than we have now.

 

[watchnerd]

Consider Fremer doesn't even have a proper Wow and Flutter meter, let alone a Thorens Rumpel-Messkoppler.

I thought you were taking a piss, but apparently it's a real device.

I think I want one!

But I have no idea how one uses it....

 

[watchnerd]

FWIW, here is the spectral decay from Miller Audio Research for the Ortofon TA-110 (OEM made by Jelco), a close cousin of the Jelco SA-750D I own (which adds fluid damping):

 

[Frank Dernie]

FWIW, here is the spectral decay from Miller Audio Research for the Ortofon TA-110 (OEM made by Jelco), a close cousin of the Jelco SA-750D I own (which adds fluid damping):

View attachment 15589

This tells a bit about the various resonances in the arm tube, and the level of damping but unfortunately it is impossible (certainly for me) to deduce from this what effect it will have on the cartridge output.
That is a lot of resonances and not much damping though, so there could well be some spurious cartridge output being caused.
The Funk Firm FRX has a well behaved arm iirc

 

[watchnerd]

This tells a bit about the various resonances in the arm tube, and the level of damping but unfortunately it is impossible (certainly for me) to deduce from this what effect it will have on the cartridge output.
That is a lot of resonances and not much damping though, so there could well be some spurious cartridge output being caused.
The Funk Firm FRX has a well behaved arm iirc

Here is the Funk Firm FRX:

 

[sergeauckland]

I thought you were taking a piss, but apparently it's a real device.

I think I want one!

But I have no idea how one uses it....

You put it over the spindle and put the stylus down on the pad. Run the turntable and it couples any bearing rumble directly to the stylus. I do something similar using a pile of coins on the top plate of the turntable, as mine don't have any suspension between the bearing and top plate, so any rumble measured on the top plate is a reasonable facsimile (worse case as no decoupling from the mat) of what the turntable rumble actually is. Using the 'silent groove' on an LP depends on cutting lathe rumble and how well pressed the test LP is, so not dependable.

S

 

[watchnerd]

You put it over the spindle and put the stylus down on the pad. Run the turntable and it couples any bearing rumble directly to the stylus. I do something similar using a pile of coins on the top plate of the turntable, as mine don't have any suspension between the bearing and top plate, so any rumble measured on the top plate is a reasonable facsimile (worse case as no decoupling from the mat) of what the turntable rumble actually is. Using the 'silent groove' on an LP depends on cutting lathe rumble and how well pressed the test LP is, so not dependable.

S

So you're measuring this before or after it goes into a phono stage?

 

[sergeauckland]

So you're measuring this before or after it goes into a phono stage?

I measure rumble after the phono stage, as I want it to be relative to normal output. My recollection of the IBA Code of Practice for Commercial Radio in the early 1970s was that rumble was measured at line level, hence after any amplification and RIAA EQ. Maybe that's how some manufactures get these very high rumble figures, measure them without RIAA eq, and one can add another 10-20dB!

 

[watchnerd]

I measure rumble after the phono stage, as I want it to be relative to normal output. My recollection of the IBA Code of Practice for Commercial Radio in the early 1970s was that rumble was measured at line level, hence after any amplification and RIAA EQ. Maybe that's how some manufactures get these very high rumble figures, measure them without RIAA eq, and one can add another 10-20dB!

You actually own one of those rumble measuring bad boys?

 

[restorer-john]

I thought you were taking a piss, but apparently it's a real device.

Me? Take the piss? Never.

I want one too. Apparently back in the day you could buy them at the Thorens factory if you visited.

Surely someone could design one these days with the precision required to dig down even further than the thorens needle/delrin bearing and shaft sleeve limitations.

I have got a decent Kenwood FL-140 W&F meter (correctly demodulates the signal to give switchable JIS, CCIR or DIN) and a range of test records, including some very old, but perfectly centred W&G ones. I can get measurements of Wow/Flutter/W&F/weighted and unweighted down to 0.001%.

Fremer these days uses a useless 'App' and presents that as a valid 'measurement'.

 

[restorer-john]

I've been messing around with the MPU-6050. It's an amazing chip.

With a FS range of 2g and a response down to DC at 16 bit (0.00003g) and an easy interface to the Arduino (the whole board can be bought for a few dollars) I'm trying to see if a usable accelerometer based rumble logger can be built. It can easily pick up cars going by 100M away when sitting on our concrete slab.

Has anyone considered something similar?

 

[watchnerd]

Fremer these days uses a useless 'App' and presents that as a valid 'measurement'.

Are you talking about Platterspeed?

If so, it's obsolete now and won't work on modern iPhones......and the replacements are even worse.

 

[sergeauckland]

You actually own one of those rumble measuring bad boys?

Sadly no, but I've seen them used. I make do with a pile of coins onto the top plate of my turntables, as the bearings and motor are coupled directly to the top plates of my turntables with no isolation, so give a 'worse case' rumble reading. I have a filter to the IEC spec for measuring rumble, both weighted and unweighted.

W&F I measure with an old analogue W&F meter, or more conveniently with the wfgui application on my tablet. I also used the platterspeed app when I had an Android tablet years ago, but they never made a Windows version, so that went away.

S