Small room with many speakers. Use speakers with wide dispersion or narrow dispersion?

[Kain]

By the way, with the Arvus + 9301B, would GLM take care of room correction and speaker trim levels?

So, ideally, it would be Arvus + 9301B + GLM kit, correct?

 

[HairyEars]

By the way, with the Arvus + 9301B, would GLM take care of room correction and speaker trim levels?

So, ideally, it would be Arvus + 9301B + GLM kit, correct?

Yes, the GLM will do room correction, time of flight adjustment, db trimming among another things.

Indeed, the aforementioned is your exact kit: Arvus + 9301B + GLM + 9310B volume control (or alternatively remote control)

 

[Kain]

Yes, the GLM will do room correction, time of flight adjustment, db trimming among another things.

Indeed, the aforementioned is your exact kit: Arvus + 9301B + GLM + 9310B volume control (or alternatively remote control)

Can the 9320A SAM Reference Controller replace the 9301B, GLM kit, and 9301B volume control since I think it does everything those three devices do? Come to think of it, it might not be able to replace the 9301B but can it replace the GLM kit and 9301B volume control? The 9320A SAM Reference Controller can do what the GLM kit does, correct?

 

[HairyEars]

You're correct. The 9320A can't replace the 9301B. It can take the place of the GLM kit + volume control, but with a hefty price: $1,500 vs $400.
If you negotiate a bit, the seller will give you the GLM kit and volume control for free, given the large purchase scope.

Functionally, understanding your specific needs, the 9320A doesn't bring anything new to the table. If at all, it adds a challenge by needing to run a cat5 and usb cables to your sitting position. The volume control is connected to the GLM with a thin DC cord, and if you prefer, you can get a remote (I have both).

 

[Kain]

You're correct. The 9320A can't replace the 9301B. It can take the place of the GLM kit + volume control, but with a hefty price: $1,500 vs $400.
If you negotiate a bit, the seller will give you the GLM kit and volume control for free, given the large purchase scope.

Functionally, understanding your specific needs, the 9320A doesn't bring anything new to the table. If at all, it adds a challenge by needing to run a cat5 and usb cables to your sitting position. The volume control is connected to the GLM with a thin DC cord, and if you prefer, you can get a remote (I have both).

Okay, thanks.

If I want to get a more "traditional" AV pre/pro in order to have "convenience" bells and whistles instead of the Arvus, would I keep the AV pre/pro's native and built-in room correction disabled and use GLM instead? Or should I somehow use both?

Also, can I add the Arvus to the traditional AV pre/pro to get AES/EBU if the traditional AV pre/pro doesn't have it natively?

Come to think of it, can I get a good/reasonable traditional AV pre/pro to gain convenience bells and whistles (such as multiple HDMI inputs and outputs, USB playback of audio and video files, volume control, bass management, etc.), add the Arvus to gain AES/EBU, and add the GLM kit for room correction?

Edit: Looking at your pictures of your setup you posted earlier in this thread, does your setup only have one seat? If yes, I assume you are the only one who uses the setup?

Lastly, do Genelec dealers provide sizable discounts, especially with "larger scale" purchases like the one I am proposing?

 

[HairyEars]

Okay, thanks.

If I want to get a more "traditional" AV pre/pro in order to have "convenience" bells and whistles instead of the Arvus, would I keep the AV pre/pro's native and built-in room correction disabled and use GLM instead? Or should I somehow use both?

Also, can I add the Arvus to the traditional AV pre/pro to get AES/EBU if the traditional AV pre/pro doesn't have it natively?

Come to think of it, can I get a good/reasonable traditional AV pre/pro to gain convenience bells and whistles (such as multiple HDMI inputs and outputs, USB playback of audio and video files, volume control, bass management, etc.), add the Arvus to gain AES/EBU, and add the GLM kit for room correction?

Edit: Looking at your pictures of your setup you posted earlier in this thread, does your setup only have one seat? If yes, I assume you are the only one who uses the setup?

Lastly, do Genelec dealers provide sizable discounts, especially with "larger scale" purchases like the one I am proposing?

A full-feature AV pre/pro with a GLM kit for sound correction is technically possible, but the pre/pro would than give little value: 1) volume control that Genelec has a good solution for; 2) Multiple inputs and outputs out of which you only need more HDMI ports and a USB output. I’ll address that below.

AV pre/pro with Arvus means the pre/pro DSP and volume control are ignored as the signal is passed through unchanged, via HDMI, to the Arvus. So you don’t gain much; only multiple inputs and outputs.

I believe you mention that you intend to use a computer as your source. That further diminishes the utility of any AV pre/pro, which are designed to operate as a stand-alone. With a computer you can direct sound out via the USB port and add an HDMI switch for multiple connections.

In conclusion, one clean solution is:

Computer + USB to AES box (around $400) + HDMI switch + Arvus + 9301B + GLM kit + Genelec volume control.

The other is to get either the Trinnov or an analog A/V and be done with it. Personally, I loathe the Trinnov price and analog would not be my path.

Today, I’m going to find the time to share with you how I would set up a system such as yours to produce the best 2.1, in addition to multi-channel. Sneak preview: It will necessitate a digital pathway.

 

[HairyEars]

My unsolicited tip for you to achieve the best sounding Genelec 2-channel setup:

2 mains + 2 subwoofers in a stereo configuration fed by a digital signal, in order to give you a full range stereo. In my experience, the SQ is much better than 2 + sub/s in mono.

In my preferable setup, one subwoofer should be to your left, the other to your right. The one on your right processes the A channel, the left one plays the B channel. All that can be easily configured via the GLM kit.

If you don’t have room for 7382 x 2 by your sides, consider scaling back to 7380A x 2. A pair of those 15” subwoofers have monstruous LF output, especially for such a small space. Regardless, one of your biggest challenges will be to tame the bass, which takes a lot of bass traps

Now the question is how to feed the monitors with two separate signals: multi-channel and stereo. No, you can’t use the pre/pro to do that because the bass channel coming out of it is mono. I’ll use my personal setup to illustrate one solution. I introduced a passive switch between the L/R and the subs of my two sources: a pre/pro and a streamer. The output from the switch goes to the L/R monitors and subs respectively. I’m attaching a couple of photos.

In your case, instead of a streamer you could use an USB to AES interface, such as Matrix SPDIF 2 USB connected to your computer.

 

[Kain]

Thanks a lot for the info.

Since this will be a home theater/media room, the main source will be an Ultra HD Blu-ray player, maybe an Apple TV, and maybe a gaming PC. A computer will not be the main/only source.

By the way, roughly what would be the total cost of Arvus + 9301B + GLM kit + 9301B volume control?

 

[HairyEars]

Ok, now the picture is clear. Obviously, you’ll want to connect all your multichannel sources, Blue-Ray + Apple TV + PC, to an HDMI switch. Bear in mind, if you play 2 channels through HDMI you won’t be able to set up your subs in stereo. Toward the latter end, you’ll have to get a streamer with an AES output and introduce a passive switch per my previous post.

Arvus = $5,000
9301B = 1,200
GLM kit = $270
9310b volume control = $110

Total = $6,580, not including shipping cost and sales tax.

If you'd like a passive switch, that’s around $700. A streamer can range between several hundred dollars (Pie based) to some crazy figures for boutique brands. I find the cheap Pie based solution not that stable so I’d spend around $1,000 or less for something like the Holo Red or the Pie2Design Mercury.

Lastly, please consider Genelec entry level main monitors, like the 1237A or 1238DF, for your L/C/R. Many posts in the attached thread attest how amazing mains can sound. I couldn’t agree more. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/why-are-main-monitors-so-powerful.56077/

 

[Kain]

Instead of getting a HDMI switch, can I use my TV as a "switch" which is likely to have 4 HDMI ports where one of them is an eARC port? I can plug the Arvus into my TV's eARC port which leaves me with three free HDMI ports where I can connect my devices.

By the way, looking at the Arvus website, it seems the Arvus only supports HDMI 2.0. Don't you need HDMI 2.1 for eARC to support lossless Dolby Atmos and DTS:X?

As for the Main Monitors recommendation, my original plan was to have the S360A in every speaker location but it seems the listening distances are too close (or not optimal) for the S360A. Rather than having Main Monitors as LCR and The Ones as surrounds/overheads I prefer to have the LCR and all surrounds/overheads as The Ones for perfect timbre match. If I ever move to a larger room, I will most likely use the Genelec Main Monitors all around in every location.

 

[Emlin]

At first I agreed with LTig that narrow would be better. However, after pondering it some more I think wider would be better. With that many speakers you're going to have A LOT of reflections, so you want those reflections to be as spectrally accurate as they can be. That means wide-dispersion speakers. Wider dispersion results in a more accurate room contribution.

Assuming that you want room contribution. I don't, as I want to listen to the recording (however made) rather than the room.

 

[HairyEars]

Instead of getting a HDMI switch, can I use my TV as a "switch" which is likely to have 4 HDMI ports where one of them is an eARC port? I can plug the Arvus into my TV's eARC port which leaves me with three free HDMI ports where I can connect my devices.

By the way, looking at the Arvus website, it seems the Arvus only supports HDMI 2.0. Don't you need HDMI 2.1 for eARC to support lossless Dolby Atmos and DTS:X?

As for the Main Monitors recommendation, my original plan was to have the S360A in every speaker location but it seems the listening distances are too close (or not optimal) for the S360A. Rather than having Main Monitors as LCR and The Ones as surrounds/overheads I prefer to have the LCR and all surrounds/overheads as The Ones for perfect timbre match. If I ever move to a larger room, I will most likely use the Genelec Main Monitors all around in every location.

If you have 3 x HDMI + eARC on your TV, then you're golden.
Personally, what I like about a switch is that I don't need to run multiple HDMI cables to from my rack to the TV. Those cables are thick and heavy, and snaking them can be a challenge. Of course, if you place your subs by your sides, then you can have your rack under the TV, and you're golden once again.

The Arvus HDMI input is Arc/eArc. The two outputs are eArc and audio only.

Your monitor selection is sensible. But if I may point out, there's a trade off. All around "Ones" will give you a perfect timbre match during multichannel music. However, in stereo, LR mains will be more enjoyable. For movies, I don't think it makes much of a difference: the LCR play difference channels than the surrounds/heights so the sound is not "thematic." BTW, Genelec its always insists the LCR should have identical timbre, but the surrounds/heights can be different. In fact, I attend their Atmos presentation and they opted for S360 LCR and "Ones" for the rest the monitors. That system really whetted my appetite...

 

[Kain]

Here is the rear of the 9301B:

Here is the rear of the Arvus:

The 9301B has AES 1-4 input and AES 5-8 input. But the Arvus only has one AES/EBU 16 channel output. How would I connect the two together? Would I get a cable that splits the Arvus AES/EBU 16 channel output into 2?

 

[HairyEars]

Here is the rear of the 9301B:

View attachment 384528

Here is the rear of the Arvus:

View attachment 384529

The 9301B has AES 1-4 input and AES 5-8 input. But the Arvus only has one AES/EBU 16 channel output. How would I connect the two together? Would I get a cable that splits the Arvus AES/EBU 16 channel output into 2?

That’s quite simple. You’ll have to order a custom cable with DB25 x 8 channels on one end, split into a pair of DB25 x 4 channels on the other side. There’re many companies that would do that particular job. Here is one:

Customize Your Own Analog DB25 Snake | Made from Mogami 2932 & Neutrik Gold | Premium Finish ( Harness Loom ) | Pro Audio LA

Save money on custom cables at Pro Audio LA : Lifetime warranty included : Any length, configuration, or color. Get what you need : 323.319.5936 | Customize Your Own Analog DB25 Snake | Made from Mogami 2932 & Neutrik Gold | Premium Finish ( Harness Loom )

www.proaudiola.com

You can present their stuff with the devices in question and the relevant topology (usually TASCAM), and they’ll do the rest. Both Genelec and Arvus have the topology laid out in their documentation so forward them a copy.

The same company can sell you the DB25 splitter for the Genelec end. Ask them to use distinct colors boots or color rings for each AES cable so it’s easy for you to manage the cables.

Be aware that each physical AES cable carries the signal of a respective pair of speakers. For example, by standard, 1 & 2 are transmitted in one cable, which feeds the right and left monitors. Thus, you have two options: A. Run the feeding cable to one monitor and daisy chain the other; B) Use a Y splitter to run the signal to each monitor.

 

[HairyEars]

That’s quite simple. You’ll have to order a custom cable with DB25 x 8 channels on one end, split into a pair of DB25 x 4 channels on the other side. There’re many companies that would do that particular job. Here is one:

Customize Your Own Analog DB25 Snake | Made from Mogami 2932 & Neutrik Gold | Premium Finish ( Harness Loom ) | Pro Audio LA

Save money on custom cables at Pro Audio LA : Lifetime warranty included : Any length, configuration, or color. Get what you need : 323.319.5936 | Customize Your Own Analog DB25 Snake | Made from Mogami 2932 & Neutrik Gold | Premium Finish ( Harness Loom )

www.proaudiola.com

You can present their stuff with the devices in question and the relevant topology (usually TASCAM), and they’ll do the rest. Both Genelec and Arvus have the topology laid out in their documentation so forward them a copy.

The same company can sell you the DB25 splitter for the Genelec end. Ask them to use distinct colors boots or color rings for each AES cable so it’s easy for you to manage the cables.

Be aware that each physical AES cable carries the signal of a respective pair of speakers. For example, by standard, 1 & 2 are transmitted in one cable, which feeds the right and left monitors. Thus, you have two options: A. Run the feeding cable to one monitor and daisy chain the other; B) Use a Y splitter to run the signal to each monitor.

Permit me to give you one more tip:

As you may be well aware, your most important speakers are the left and right. For that reason, as a first step, I would purchase only the LRC + the subs and experiment with their position. It’s quite commen that the L/R sound might best when their face is 1.1m or more away from the rear wall. Note that the room rear wall cancellation frequency is shifted to 2 lower octaves, which is played by the subwoofers.

Only after that all-important fact is established, should you determine where your surrounds are placed.

In my small room, for example, given that my monitors are 1.3m away from the rear wall, I don’t have enough space for wide speakers. Likewise, 6 height speakers are just too many in regards to my sitting position and the rear wall.

It’s better to have great L/R placement in 7.1.X than a 9.1.6 with suboptimal L/R placement.

 

[Kain]

Permit me to give you one more tip:

As you may be well aware, your most important speakers are the left and right. For that reason, as a first step, I would purchase only the LRC + the subs and experiment with their position. It’s quite commen that the L/R sound might best when their face is 1.1m or more away from the rear wall. Note that the room rear wall cancellation frequency is shifted to 2 lower octaves, which is played by the subwoofers.

Only after that all-important fact is established, should you determine where your surrounds are placed.

In my small room, for example, given that my monitors are 1.3m away from the rear wall, I don’t have enough space for wide speakers. Likewise, 6 height speakers are just too many in regards to my sitting position and the rear wall.

It’s better to have great L/R placement in 7.1.X than a 9.1.6 with suboptimal L/R placement.

Thanks for the tip.

If my room is well-treated, would it still matter how/where the LCR (and other speakers) are positioned in the room? Also, since my room is small and I will be sitting close to pretty much all the speakers, won't I be hearing more direct sound vs. reflected sound thus reducing the impact of various different speaker placements/positioning?

 

[HairyEars]

Thanks for the tip.

If my room is well-treated, would it still matter how/where the LCR (and other speakers) are positioned in the room? Also, since my room is small and I will be sitting close to pretty much all the speakers, won't I be hearing more direct sound vs. reflected sound thus reducing the impact of various different speaker placements/positioning?

As a rule, placing the speaker next to a wall increases the bass output. To substantially minimize that coupling effect requires heavy treatment of 1.5’-2’ of dense rockwool. Unfortunately, small rooms don’t have the space for that. In your case, I suppose you’ll be using boards in the range of 3” to 4” thickness, which is excellent. However, as I stated in my previous posts, taming the bass is still going to be a challenge.

Even studios with plenty of space and a generous budget for acoustic treatment, flush-mount their monitors since it is the only method to eliminate the effects of rear wall reflection and control the LF directivity.

One crucial reason to experiment with your listening positing is that you don’t want to sit smack inside a room mode band. In those regions, the bass can be either unpleasantly boosted, or missing. To illustrate, play some bass heavy music and walk along the room. Every 10” or so, the bass will sound differently.

Getting a great sound is a multi-step process that takes patience and experimentation. The first step is always to decide on your LR monitor placement and listening position.

As for the surround monitors, since your room is small and most of its surface is going to be treated, there’re no additional steps you have to take.

Lastly, and unrelated, consider wall mounts for your surround instead of stands; it will free a lot of space and enable placing the subs to your left and right.

 

[Kain]

As a rule, placing the speaker next to a wall increases the bass output. To substantially minimize that coupling effect requires heavy treatment of 1.5’-2’ of dense rockwool. Unfortunately, small rooms don’t have the space for that. In your case, I suppose you’ll be using boards in the range of 3” to 4” thickness, which is excellent. However, as I stated in my previous posts, taming the bass is still going to be a challenge.

Even studios with plenty of space and a generous budget for acoustic treatment, flush-mount their monitors since it is the only method to eliminate the effects of rear wall reflection and control the LF directivity.

One crucial reason to experiment with your listening positing is that you don’t want to sit smack inside a room mode band. In those regions, the bass can be either unpleasantly boosted, or missing. To illustrate, play some bass heavy music and walk along the room. Every 10” or so, the bass will sound differently.

Getting a great sound is a multi-step process that takes patience and experimentation. The first step is always to decide on your LR monitor placement and listening position.

As for the surround monitors, since your room is small and most of its surface is going to be treated, there’re no additional steps you have to take.

Lastly, and unrelated, consider wall mounts for your surround instead of stands; it will free a lot of space and enable placing the subs to your left and right.

Thanks.

Won't GLM be able to tame the bass if I decide to place the LCR speakers on the front wall? Also, I am probably going to crossover my speakers at 80 Hz so they are not likely to produce much (deep) bass.

 

[Kain]

By the way, I saw that the 7382A subwoofer's amplifier is external and it has a fan. Is the fan loud? Can the amplifier be placed in-room without causing noise? Also, do Genelec's other subwoofers, such as the 7380A, also have fans or is it just the 7382A?

 

[HairyEars]

Thanks.

Won't GLM be able to tame the bass if I decide to place the LCR speakers on the front wall? Also, I am probably going to crossover my speakers at 80 Hz so they are not likely to produce much (deep) bass.

In terms of sound correction, GLM—much like other room corrections software—is merely the cherry on the pie. Yes, it will improve the sound, but it can’t address fundamental issues with room acoustics. Optimal monitor placement, proper listening positioning and robust treatment are the foundations of good sound; the software is the polishing touch.

BTW, you can mount the center on the wall without hesitation. It mostly plays the dialog so LF is not an issue. Besides, you don’t have that many options, given it should be above or under the TV for proper voice anchoring.