Small PC vs streamer

[Wombat]

One of the more funny things I have read lately, thanks for the laugh though. Then you bring in the DANGER DANGER WILL ROBINSON! Thanks!

Don't know about where live but if you call a utility where I live and tell them you have noise on your AC line from yours or neighbors appliances, refrigerator, air conditioners, neaby RF... yada yada yada. After they finish laughing, they will say what do you want us to do buddy?

How is plugging in a filter, or isolation transformer dangerous or illegal??? How is using a linear PS instead a noisy switcher foolhardy. Amir just mentioned in his latest dac tests he will be using a linear supply for his Exasound DAC.

If what you say re utility responsibility is normal in the USA then most western counties are miles ahead of the USA in regulating power system performance. How clean is your air and water?

Your last paragraph is a figment of your imagination. I did not say those things.

 

[Brookt]

I've been doing AB comparisons all week.
3 different inputs into Chord M Scaler and Qutest DAC.

Cambridge CXN streamer via optical 1
Cambridge CXC transport via optical 2
Laptop via USB

Playing from Tidal and matching the same album versions on CD.

CD transport is best
Streamer is second
Laptop is 3rd.

The characteristics improve similarly each time. The sound becomes more vibrant, more treble, punchier bass, better timbre.

I am able to quickly switch the 3 inputs with the M Scalers remote.

Amp is Emotiva TA100 and A300
Speakers are Klipsch Forte III

I wanted to sell the CXN to buy the Chord DAC which I'm borrowing and just do all my streaming through the laptop but I won't be doing that now. My next step will selling something else to get the chord DAC and possibly getting an older high end SACD player to try.
Using the Chord DAC was a large improvement over the stock Wolfson DAC I the CXN.

 

[captain paranoia]

I've been doing AB comparisons all week.

Sighted, or blind comparisons...?

 

[Sal1950]

I've been doing AB comparisons all week.

What method did you use to ensure level matching to within 0.2db?

 

[Brookt]

Oh he we go, it's the comparison critics.

Yes to both,

I've tried with at the same volumes, even the USB at louder volumes, all the comparisons and scenarios you would use as a LISTENER
This is not a science experiment in applied physics, I am looking for audible differences to choose a format the will provide the best sound quality.
I've spend years recording music, developing tone for instruments.
I know when bass is tighter, when treble is brighter, detail is more vivid. I know what a drum kit sounds like, what it feels like.

I also can tell the whether the difference is the volume or the change in tonal characteristics.
I have done selections quickly back and forth with the remote, this switches the sources into the DAC instantly.
I have also done long listen sessions in each mode blind tested.

For the record I don't need the approval of the audio sciences guild satisfy my findings as I'm not publishing a paper.
I am putting this out this out there to help fellow audiophiles, ones who may think there is nothing to gain over buying a streamer to just using their laptop and no I don't sell HiFi gear.

You get many people saying there can be no difference in digital data, it's all ones and zeros, technically this does this and that does that. The reality is that is all irrelevant as nobody sits down each night to enjoy music by measuring it with computer equipment, they enjoy music with their ears.

I have other fellow listeners who put many hours and $$$ into getting the best sound possible. I wasn't bias to any source but we have all come to similar conclusions.

The reason I even did this testing is because after borrowing the Chord DAC I wanted to sell my streamer to pay for it, as I thought I wouldn't need it anymore, I could even do higher res files from my laptop via USB. So if anything I was bias towards USB.
But it just didn't sound as could, so now I'll be keeping the streamer and have to find the money elsewhere to buy the Chord DAC, which is better sounding than the DAC in the Cambridge Audio Streamer.

So my 2 best formats for listening to music will be:
Streaming from Tidal with my CXN - It's so convenient, instant music and almost endless selection, superior sound quality.
CD Transport - I will buy CD's of my most favorite music and will also try different CD transports and SACD players to improve quality.of

Maybe this wasn't right place to discuss the audible quality of equipment after looking at the forums name but it's one that popped up when I searched. Hopefully fellow audiophiles search this post and not just scientists.


Enjoy.

 

[Sal1950]

Maybe this wasn't right place to discuss the audible quality of equipment after looking at the forums name but it's one that popped up when I searched. Hopefully fellow audiophiles search this post and not just scientists.

We're all audiophiles here, just not the group that falls for snake-oil and undocumented claims. If you want to be believed you need to post the scientific conditions under which you came to your conclusions.

 

[Pluto]

I am putting this out this out there to help fellow audiophiles, ones who may think there is nothing to gain over buying a streamer to just using their laptop

What do you honestly believe to be the difference between a purpose-built "streamer" and a computer?

 

[Brookt]

My conditions were as mentioned above, as scientific and objective as I could be with as less variables as possible.

These are the only scenarios I will actually apply in the field, which are my listening conditions.

I'm not a snake oil enthusiast, I am an electrician and don't believe in mains power chords and many mains power improvements in general.
I have heard no audible difference with any of those products, I am very much a man of spend money where it counts.

Why does the streamer sound better? I think it may have something to do with a USB connection, there sound like there is some filtering, softening, lagging or buffering going on. I don't have a lot a computer theory knowledge but hey, I don't build computers, I listen to music.

From my physical experimenting and trail and error I think it may have something to do with the optical signal rather than USB, I know USB does higher res but maybe that doesn't always equate to sound quality.

What is interesting is the M Scaler is a digital filter and does some similar characteristics in regards to softening as the USB does, although this does it with a more enhanced effect by reducing harshness, and listening fatigue and manages to keep all the good stuff.
Again this is only my audible experience. From what I've read the upsampling theory makes sense.

Cheers.

 

[majingotan]

My conditions were as mentioned above, as scientific and objective as I could be with as less variables as possible.

These are the only scenarios I will actually apply in the field, which are my listening conditions.

Sighted listening is NOT scientific and objective as the variable of confirmation bias still applies (that what you see makes you confirm that the object or unit is doing something magical where in fact it doesn't). Unless proven by 19/20 correct choice under DBT volume matched to 0.01 dB (using oscilloscope) your statement that the USB from laptop sounds different than your CD transport just applies to what you and only you perceive (thus an opinion and not objective and scientific fact)

 

[BDWoody]

I have other fellow listeners who put many hours and $$$ into getting the best sound possible. I wasn't bias to any source but we have all come to similar conclusions.

Uh huh...

 

[Brookt]

Sighted listening is NOT scientific and objective as the variable of confirmation bias still applies (that what you see makes you confirm that the object or unit is doing something magical where in fact it doesn't). Unless proven by 19/20 correct choice under DBT volume matched to 0.01 dB (using oscilloscope) your statement that the USB from laptop sounds different than your CD transport just applies to what you and only you perceive (thus an opinion and not objective and scientific fact)

Hence why I'm not submitting a paper, just sharing my experience that I believe could help other audiophiles. Encouraging them to try similar.
I frequently get asked for my opinion of peoples equipment and ideas on how to improve. I have reasonable faith in that ability to audibly assess Hifi equipment and be as objective as possible.

I have done blind tests, on this and several pieces of equipment with my wife and friends. I can pick the difference in all 3 variables mentioned in my first post. I can also hear when the difference when the M Scaler is off and when it is on, in blind tests.

Like I said, don't need verification from an official to recommend my findings to other audiophiles to try for themselves.

I'm not stating any claims of measurement other than what is audible to me and that's all that really matters.
I don't get out an oscilloscope every time I pick out a guitar amp, recording mic, software plug in.
Some of it is taste but somethings are just BETTER - which can be heard.

 

[Sal1950]

I have done blind tests, on this and several pieces of equipment with my wife and friends. I can pick the difference in all 3 variables mentioned in my first post. I can also hear when the difference when the M Scaler is off and when it is on, in blind tests.

Which only proves that something is wrong with the other variables in your test. Different sources of the exact same digital stream don't sound that different if at all.
Guitar amps, recording mic's and software plug-in's are supposed to sound different, that's the reason for their existance. None of that has anything to do with High Fidelity gear designed for REPRODUCTION.

 

[Brookt]

Like I mentioned, there's not many variables as they have all been connected to the DAC in the only way possible. All listened to in the same way, same place as I do all my listening.
Laptop via USB streaming from Tidal, with the correct Tidal App
CXN via optical into DAC
CXC via optical into DAC.

All using the same 44.1kz master on Tidal.

I've done the comparison with just the CXN Vs CXC, streaming vs transport.
The transport feeds into the CXN so they are using the same DAC, the same damn player even.
The CD always sounds better than the identical streamed master, in fact it sounds better than any of the masters.

I spend days swapping things around going back and forth, trying all kinds of streamed tracks, downloaded tracks, DSD, 192, 98, 44.8 ect,... all ends up the same out come.

So the fact it your are not correct, different sources of the same digital stream do sound different, I've heard it myself time and time again.

I do similar comparisons on my friends system, same outcome.

Why would I want streamers and CD's to sound better? honestly? they are expensive. If I had one wish now, it would be for laptop based streaming to be superior. Then all I would need is my laptop and the best DAC I can afford.

I know your statement about guitar amps, but some of these, especially recording devices, some do sound BETTER, more Hifi.
Because I can tell the difference between tonal preference and Hifi, the difference between more life like and just a different coloration.

Back when MP3 was introduced I could tell the difference right away. A friend of mine was playing it in his car, I had no idea at the time but after a while I said to him, "what CD version is this, it sound like shit" to which he replied , "oh it's playing off a stored MP3 file on the stereo unit.

Some people claim there is no audible difference in MP3 to which I just go fair enough, obviously sound just ain't that important to you then.

 

[Brookt]

And for those of you rebutting, have you spent the time at home in your listening areas comparing similar products? comparing USB, Coax, optical
CD, streaming, different DACs, amps ect.... ect...

Or do you base you arguments soley on your theoretical studies?

Do you have equipment that is capable of revealing these subtle differences?
Are you sensitive enough hear and feel the subtle differences in timbre, decay, imaging ect..?

Most Hifi companies fine tune their equipment by ear, they will all tell you that measurements only get you so far.

 

[Sal1950]

Do you have equipment that is capable of revealing these subtle differences?
Are you sensitive enough hear and feel the subtle differences in timbre, decay, imaging ect..?

Yep, LOL Same ole, same ole.
It's either our ears or gear if we don't hear his magic dust.

 

[Brookt]

It's up to you were your journey ends.

Some people I know can't even hear the difference in speakers, so that were there journey ends.

Maybe you guys can't hear the difference in DACs or USB vs Streamers, that fine, you need't go any further.

I can't hear any difference in cable so I don't bother any further than mid range and the looks are more important.

And it's the same ole same ole from you guys too, if I can't see it on an oscilloscope then it's not audible. Well do you listen to music through a scope or your ears?

Plus you keep claiming my findings are not scientific, when in know way have I claimed they were. It's doesn't matter, I'm not selling piece of equipment claims it does this or that. I''m just sharing advice for people who may find it useful.

I'm not posting this here to challenge anyone's theories as i'm not supplying any of my own, I'm not selling snake oil, I'm not selling anything.

What would you really like to do? Do you want to come round to my house with all your gear and measure everything, will that achieve anything?
I'll still prefer the sound of my transport over USB, and many others will to.

I'll continue to go as deep into HiFi as I can hear a difference, if you guys reached that point with a PC, $200 DAC and some computer monitors then good for you, you need not contribute anymore to these forums as your journey is finished.

 

[Brookt]

Anyway guys, you enjoy your test equipment , I'm off to enjoy some music

Bye.

 

[tw99]

Anyway guys, you enjoy your test equipment , I'm off to enjoy some music

Bye.

We all like music here. We're just not interested in uncontrolled subjective impressions. You could have registered on any other hifi forum in the world....

 

[BDWoody]

. I''m just sharing advice for people who may find it useful.

Right.

And we're simply saying your methodology makes that advice basically meaningless.

 

[jimp]

This thread seems to have gone off the tracks a bit so I thought I'd try to get it back on track. I'm trying to answer a question similar as the OP. What is a cost effective way to stream high definition audio from Tidal, Amazon Music, Qobuz, Deezer, etc. Don't think i am looking to stream from a storage device on my network.

There a few options I am considering:

1. iPad with a iPad camera adapter kit feeding one of the highly rated DACs here.
2. A miniDSP SHD. If I went with the Studio version I would feed it to one of the highly rated DACs here or get the SHD with its own DACs. The SHD w/ DACs seems to measure pretty well here.
3. Bluesound Node 2i and feed the coaxial digital out to one of the highly rated DACs here. I would not use the internal DACs.
4. Google Chromecast Audio with a Mini Toslink cable to Toslink cable feeding one of the highly rated DACs here.
5. Aurender, Maxtrix Audio Element, or some other streamer that can act as a Roon endpoint with built in DACs in the 3k price range.

I'm sure there are others I should consider as well?

I feel like getting one of the highly rated DACs that measured well here and sending it a quality digital signal is a more cost effective approach. The all in one boxes are nice but pricey for what I need --- stream audio from Tidal, Amazon Music, etc not from an onboard storage or local storage device. I also feel like any one of the options that feed a digital signal to the DACs would work well. Looking for some feedback on that statement. Is one really any better than another with respect to the digital audio in to the DACs? I've read a bunch here about jitter in the signal so I'm throughly confused on that one. Do some DACs deal better with that than others? Can I avoid that whole conversation with the "right" choice of DACs?

One main consideration here is the control application. On the iPad I could use the Tidal or Amazon music application. The miniDSP I would use the Volumio web browser. The Bluesound I would use the BluOS Controller app. The Chromecast would be via a browser. The Aurender has the Conductor App. The Matrix Audio Element would be via the Roon remote application. I'm not sure which of these apps would be the easiest to use. There are a lot of fans of the Roon remote app but since I not managing a library of music does it matter?

Some things I have considered:

1. Room correction software. Dirac Live on the SHD is a very nice plus. On the others I think i would need to use something like JRiver for room correction. On the other hand, I would only use this to integrate my 2 subs with the mains. Nothing much above 200Hz. This brings me to the next consideration.
2. Subwoofer outputs on the SHD and Node 2i are a plus. I have two subs and would love to be able to listen to them with my front stereo speakers. The Node 2i only has one sub out so i would need something like a miniDSP in order to use both subs. Also by adding the subs I would need some room correction software to properly integrate the mains and subs.
3. Operating any of the solutions via an iPhone is a huge plus. I haven't quite figure out which ones of these solutions would support that yet. Not sure I can control an iPad from an iPhone. I think the Roon remote app runs on an iPhone as well as the BluOS controller app. Think I need an iPad for the Conductor App.

So i was wondering if I could get some input to help me make my decision. Thanks in advance for any help and guidance you can provide.