• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Small PC vs streamer

ezra_s

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 23, 2020
Messages
293
Likes
327
Location
Spain
Thank you for response and the link. Obviously I missed that conversation and it is recent. Shame on me for poor searching.
I read through some of this briefly but need to spend some more time going through it. I had considered a Raspberry Pi at one point but can't remember why I stopped looking it. Based on your experience and others here recommending the Raspberry Pi I need to take a closer look again. One thing I know I'll want is a reasonable nice enclosure since it will be in sight and I have to deal with wife acceptance factor. Some of those she would not be please to look at.

I started by burning picoreplayer and checking it out, it turned out to be easier than I expected.

About enclosure, how is this for a nice enclosure?
0ab1c2be-6bae-4c05-ab81-59e2b3f41681.jpeg
 

Sal1950

Grand Contributor
The Chicago Crusher
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
14,073
Likes
16,609
Location
Central Fl
The OUI for Raspberry Pi is b827 and Bob's your uncle:
Awesome, Thanks much, and Bob's your uncle. LOL

"Bob's your uncle" is a phrase commonly used in Ireland, United Kingdom and Commonwealth countries that means "and there it is" or "and there you have it." Typically, someone says it to conclude a set of simple instructions or when a result is reached. The meaning is similar to that of the French expression "et voilà!"
 

Brookt

Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2020
Messages
16
Likes
7
No it does, as those comparison I've done, performed by more and more people with give good advice

 

Brookt

Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2020
Messages
16
Likes
7
You have your answer: CD Transport. What else is there to discuss?

Was wondering if others have heard similar, posting for others to be aware of the benefits that are not common knowledge or are critized.

I've heard digital sources can't sound different, I believe otherwise and want to hear from others who have done the listening tests, not just theoretical arguments
 
Last edited:

Brookt

Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2020
Messages
16
Likes
7
You know, I have a Rasp Pi running Volumio and it works really well. I love the thing. It has a completely unnecessary hat with coax out running into a Topping D70. USB would work fine. Volumio and a D30 (or KTB) would probably outperform most "hifi" streamers on the market. Total cost is under $200 and the setup has a tiny footprint. It's ugly, but you can hide it easily because of the small size. My RPi is tucked behind my receiver. Can't tell it's there, and it just works. All of my music is on a 1TB external HDD. It's a super convenient setup.

I tried my laptop into a Topping D50 DAC, it was very good but not as good sounding as my Cambridge CXN Streamer.
I'm current;y using the Topping as we speak in my garage office setup, great for the money. It does DSD which is handy but I didn't hear any benefits from DSD files over streaming or CD Transport.
 

bluefuzz

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 17, 2020
Messages
1,043
Likes
1,774
I've heard digital sources can't sound different,

They can't, if they are indeed identical. But comparing a CD with the same release streamed from Tidal is not a good test. If you save a Tidal track and compare it with a FLAC of the same track ripped from the CD you will find they are not in fact identical. Tidal and other streaming services add watermarking and sometimes level matching/compession to their files even though they are ostensibly the same release as the CD. So you are comparing apples to oranges.
 

Brookt

Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2020
Messages
16
Likes
7
They can't, if they are indeed identical. But comparing a CD with the same release streamed from Tidal is not a good test. If you save a Tidal track and compare it with a FLAC of the same track ripped from the CD you will find they are not in fact identical. Tidal and other streaming services add watermarking and sometimes level matching/compession to their files even though they are ostensibly the same release as the CD. So you are comparing apples to oranges.

Agreed with the different file version or master version but that doesn't explain why the CXN Streamer into the DAC sounds better than the laptop.
They are streaming the exact same file from Tidal.

Plus this is a typical users test of which ripping CD's hasn't been included. Only Streaming laptop vs streaming player vs CD transport.
The original post was about streaming on PC vs Streamer hence my input.

For me if I had CD's to rip I would just play them in the CD transport, just my preference.

I'm just providing my experience from lots of trial and error and a recommendation that dedicated streamers and other more expensive digital transports do actually make an audible difference.
 

bluefuzz

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 17, 2020
Messages
1,043
Likes
1,774
that doesn't explain why the CXN Streamer into the DAC sounds better than the laptop.
They are streaming the exact same file from Tidal.
Assuming the laptop output is bitperfect – both Windows and Mac can do unexpected things to audio if you're not careful – then you are probably imagining the difference. Or it is simply a matter of the levels not being identical. 1dB difference is enough to seem 'better'.

For me if I had CD's to rip I would just play them in the CD transport
I have ripped most of my CD's to my NAS server for ease of access. Although I mostly use Spotify nowadays as that's even easier, and sounds the same.

I'm just providing my experience from lots of trial and error
Well, through the years, I have equally unscientifically compared CD sources with ripped FLACs, Spotify streams, Tidal streams on a Cambridge StreamMagic 6 and NAD C658 as well as assorted small streaming devices (Raspberry Pi, Vero4k, Odroid C2, Wetek Hub etc.), laptops and desktop computers plugged into same, and they all sound identical to me. At least identical enough that I have no reason to think otherwise. If I did hear 'night and day' differences I would be looking for something broken in the signal chain, misconfigured software etc.
 

Brookt

Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2020
Messages
16
Likes
7
Bluefuzz, I find it odd you haven't heard any differences or improvements in all those digital sources but hey, you hear what you hear. Pays to be a bit careful saying things like you are just imagining it, that similar to straight up calling someone a liar or totally unaware of their own senses, big claim.

Hearing is such a diverse and complex sense.
physically and biologically even. For example, while listening simply push the outside of your ears forward just a centimeter or 2, the change in sound is drastic. That's how different peoples hearing can be. Theres also the ability to focus on differences and anyone will tell you the differences in a DAC or Digital Transport are not night and day, they are extremely subtle but for many Hifi enthusiasts it's all about the last 1%

I know my wife has much better hearing than me volume wise. she hears things from our room that I can't but she can't even tell the difference between amps. So there's much you shouldn't assume about what people can and can't hear or feel.

If it all sounds the same to you then great, easy, job done and money saved. Stream with a CC audio and spend your money elsewhere but don't claim that their can't possibly be a difference to be heard for others.
 

BDWoody

Chief Cat Herder
Moderator
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 9, 2019
Messages
6,948
Likes
22,625
Location
Mid-Atlantic, USA. (Maryland)
Pays to be a bit careful saying things like you are just imagining it, that similar to straight up calling someone a liar or totally unaware of their own senses, big claim.

Fortunately one actually backed by decades of research.

No one is saying anyone is a liar. The reality is that uncontrolled subjective tests will not give results that can be relied on to be informative. If you don't understand how bias influences how and what you 'hear' then you may not be as aware of your senses as you believe you are.

Unless something is really horribly designed, broken, or meant to impart distortion by design, hearing differences as commonly described between solid state components or digital sources is going need more than 'because I said so,' or because even Darko says so.

When he does a controlled test, he'll be good for more than a laugh.

The audio world...like Darko...relies on perpetuating nonsense. Here we try to expose and eliminate it.
 
Last edited:

tw99

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2019
Messages
467
Likes
1,069
Location
West Berkshire, UK
If it all sounds the same to you then great, easy, job done and money saved. Stream with a CC audio and spend your money elsewhere but don't claim that their can't possibly be a difference to be heard for others.

Did you bother to read any of the material on this forum before registering ? In case you didn't, I'll just point out that you haven't landed somewhere with the most sympathetic audience for subjective audiophile claims. Almost any other HiFi forum would do, if you want that. On the other hand, if you're willing to learn about how fallible your hearing is, and what really matters in sound reproduction, I suggest reading more here first...
 

Pluto

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 2, 2018
Messages
990
Likes
1,631
Location
Harrow, UK
my wife has much better hearing than me volume wise. she hears things from our room that I can't but she can't even tell the difference between amps
Now what does that statement really mean? Has it even occurred to you that the reason your better-eared wife...
...can't even tell the difference between amps
is that she hears no difference between amps and has no reasons to claim otherwise?
 

WoodyLuvr

Active Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2018
Messages
122
Likes
182
Location
Siam
This thread reminds me of when I was "completely dumbfounded" by an astounding minimalist two-channel system that I had the pleasure to listen to one fine afternoon three years ago with a group of fellow audiophiles. We were "thoroughly schooled" that day on DACs, streamers, & music file formats. It was owned by a music loving couple... a mathematician/electrical engineer and team lead designing power supply units for communication satellites and his 14-year younger wife a professional clarinetist (classical and jazz).

This extraordinary system revolved around Acapella horn speakers powered by a pair of 110kg mono block amps connected by the meatiest DIY cables I had ever seen... they were at least three fingers thick! The amps were fed by a preamp with only one input from a PC Media Server that held over 20,000 tracks... that's it, nothing else! No CD Transport, No Tape Deck, No Turntable... as he had grown tired of messing with physical CDs and vinyl he sold off all the associated equipment and music collection. No Digital Media Streamer... as he didn't care much for them and felt that PC Audio was more than adequate if it was done correctly and the majority of his music files were in MP3 and AAC lossy format. And now get this... No External DAC!

He had chuckled when asked about the DAC and his use of lossy music formats and politely pointed out that none of us seemed to mind or complain about his old motherboard's DAC (an ALC 889) providing lossy audio signal to his horn speakers via a simple $35 stereo line-out cable (3.5mm to RCA) from the motherboard's rear i/o panel to the preamp. He truly believed, and demonstrated rather well, that the quality of modern DACs (even those on older motherboards) were so good that it didn't warrant money to be spent on them. The most important part of a system in his mind were the speakers and the room that they sat in. Besides that, just keep your signal path as simple, short, and clean as possible.

Again, just to stress the simplicity of the system:

PC MEDIA SERVER (Foobar2000; MP3/AAC/FLAC) > 3.5mm Line-Out to RCA Cable > PREAMP > XLR Cables > MONO BLOCK AMPS > DIY Speaker Cables > Acapella Horn Speakers
 

Jinjuku

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 28, 2016
Messages
1,278
Likes
1,180
No it does, as those comparison I've done, performed by more and more people with give good advice

Darko claims to be able the hear the difference between manufacture of RAM module... Also Ethernet cables. That's all good but I have to ask: When has Jon last validated his hearing?
 

Jinjuku

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 28, 2016
Messages
1,278
Likes
1,180
PC MEDIA SERVER (Foobar2000; MP3/AAC/FLAC) > 3.5mm Line-Out to RCA Cable > PREAMP > XLR Cables > MONO BLOCK AMPS > DI Speaker Cables > Acapella Horn Speakers

I'm with them. The shorter the path the fewer the problems. I remember 2015 RMAF with some Pluto speakers and a simple CD player basically mopping the floor with 95% of the speakers out there. Some ~40 X the cost.
 

bluefuzz

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 17, 2020
Messages
1,043
Likes
1,774
I find it odd you haven't heard any differences or improvements in all those digital sources but hey, you hear what you hear.
It's a question of expectations. You expect to hear a difference and so you do. I don't expect to hear a difference and so I don't.
Pays to be a bit careful saying things like you are just imagining it, that similar to straight up calling someone a liar or totally unaware of their own senses
On the contrary. I quite believe you hear what you (think) you hear. The placebo effect is a real effect. Just like a red sugar pill is more 'effective' against stomach ulcers than a blue sugar pill or a course of acupuncture 'cures' your back pain. The human sensory apparatus is massively prone to all sorts of illusions and biases due to our evolutionary history. You can most emphatically not trust your senses all the time. And this is why we need science.
while listening simply push the outside of your ears forward just a centimeter or 2, the change in sound is drastic
Yes, exactly. This, again, is why you can not trust your senses in listening tests without rigorous controls. Just sitting six inches to the right in the sofa can drastically change the stereo image. Or someone moved the table lamp a foot nearer the speaker changing the early reflections. There are infinite ways for you to hear 'differences' between two listening tests without there being any actual difference in the DAC, the amp or the source. What science can tell us is what is likely and what is plausible.
but don't claim that their can't possibly be a difference to be heard for others
I don't think I did. Ultimately, once the sound vibrations have passed through the ear canal, all we are left with are spike trains in the brain. We don't as yet know how those spike trains become the experience of sound or music. As you say, 'you hear what you hear' but with science we can measure what is happening in our audio gear and what is impinging on our eardrums. What happens after that is purely the production of your brain ...
 

Brookt

Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2020
Messages
16
Likes
7
Did you bother to read any of the material on this forum before registering ? In case you didn't, I'll just point out that you haven't landed somewhere with the most sympathetic audience for subjective audiophile claims. Almost any other HiFi forum would do, if you want that. On the other hand, if you're willing to learn about how fallible your hearing is, and what really matters in sound reproduction, I suggest reading more here first...

Lol, I will have to agree with you here, I feel like a guy who accidentally walked into a Feminist/Vegan conference with an I love BBQ and Miller Light T-shirt on.

I've spent years with music and have always been very sensitive to audio quality of all sorts of components and the reasons are irrelevant.

Like I said, I hear a difference in this equipment, one way or another I do and it enhances the experience for me. All the science experiments in the world aren't to change my ability to enjoy music. I've had gear that was mean't to be amazing but it wasn't to me, I know where to spend my money and I know what improves sound quality for me.

At the end of the day I'm not selling anything nor am I affiliated to any group, I'm just sharing my experience and I won't be told by someone that my ability to access my own experience is inadequate. By all means you can say you can't hear a difference but don't tell other people they can't just because your instrument doesn't measure it, it's an instrument, not a living human. ( this is a response to all, not just yourself by the way)

I'll still encourage others to TRY equipment and decide themselves what enhances their audio experience and what doesn't, because remember, this is a hobby and a totally personal entertainment experience, so telling people they aren't actually enjoying certain gear more than other gear because of some tests you did has got to be the most pointless use of science available. It's like saying dimming the lights or burning candles or the look of equipment doesn't make it better TO THE LISTENER, So what if it's placebo, doesn't change how real it feels or the pleasure it gives.
I'm not going to spend $5K on cables because it's not a big enough improvement if any, to me, to justify the money. But if you have $10 Million and you hear a difference for the better and think it's justified then cool by me.

Do you really think getting people to do double blind tests and convincing them to believe that they can't hear what they are hearing is going to enhance their experience and make audio more fun? I doubt it.

At the end of the day if a company makes a DAC the improves the experience for listeners, does it really matter why? does it matter if it can't be measured or if it's just the hype, placebo, visual enhancements ? No audiophile is using this product to win any competition.

So concentrate you science experiments on things that actually make a difference in peoples lives, not reduce the joy they get from audio.
Like tyres that actually grip the road better and last longer or more fuel efficient engines ect.. ect... ect...

I think we can all agree this has gone as far as it's gonna go so I'll leave you gentlemen to your energetic debates.

All the best, may audio bring much happiness and joy to your lives. :)

Brook.
 
Last edited:

BDWoody

Chief Cat Herder
Moderator
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 9, 2019
Messages
6,948
Likes
22,625
Location
Mid-Atlantic, USA. (Maryland)
Do you really think getting people to do double blind tests and convincing them to believe that they can't hear what they are hearing is going to enhance their experience and make audio more fun? I doubt it.

Actually, it could...Once one realizes that there is an almost negative correlation between cost and performance in much of the audio world.

Instead of wasting time and money chasing snake oil laden products that will do nothing to actually improve sound, maybe they buy some decent speakers instead of some ridiculously overpriced underperforming piece of audio jewellery that some guy on the internet said was super-great.

If through a bit of effort to put together a test for themselves that minimizes their ability to use anything but ears, they find that the imagined differences aren't there, that is a lifetime of stress they can say goodbye to...no need to worry about whether you really need what Darko recommends next.

I'm all for fancy gear for those who are in a place to enjoy it...doesnt mean it sounds better.
 

Sal1950

Grand Contributor
The Chicago Crusher
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
14,073
Likes
16,609
Location
Central Fl
not reduce the joy they get from audio.
Reduce the joy? We're trying to get you to pull your head out of the sand and learn to spend your dollars on things that actually increase the joy you get for your money spent?
Insisting there really is a Santa Claus is fun, but not realistic.
 
Top Bottom