Small PC vs streamer

[Neddy]

While I can't comment on your hardware/connectivity needs (I don't stream, pretty much at all), I do have some experiences/opinions about player software. (I'm very opinionated on that topic - spent 20 years managing/designing 'the art of software development' that did things FAR more complex that just playing audio!)
You'll spend far more time 'hands on' with the software than the hardware, so, aside from meeting basic HW requirements, I'd suggest you trial every software package pretty intensively. Even little things 'wrong' with a UI can drive you (me, at least) mad over time.
For instance - how will you be 'viewing' or 'interacting' with the software? - by phone, tablet, or monitor viewing from a distance?
I was totally unprepared for the difficulty of reading a very dense and feature laden software package like JRiver from a distance of 10' from a 50" screen! (And now is NOT a good time to try to get new prescription lenses made!)
As much as I like tablets, I find the touch screen interface too limited for some things...but good streaming software specifically designed for tablet/phone use might be a joy to use!
Hope this helps even a tiny bit - happy decision making!!

 

[jimp]

Thank you for your reply.

I agree with you about the software. I'll mostly be interacting with it to find and play music. That's why I brought the topic of the application up in my post. But I think the hardware is important too. Great measuring hardware and a cumbersome, slow, awkward application is not good but it may be better than a slick, easy to use application and poor measuring hardware. I'll trade off some UI convenience for higher quality sound but that's just me.

Ideally I would want to control everything from a iPhone app. If i can't turn the streamer and DACs on/off from the phone I'd be okay with that but it would be really nice to select the music to listen to and control volume from the phone. If I went the iPad approach it would be dedicated to the stereo system and I'd walk up to it to select the music and control the volume. Not terrible since I'll only be using this system when i want sit for serious listening. I have a totally different system for HT that I can use when just hanging around the house and not doing serious listening. If possible I could also control the streamer from my Mac which is always sitting next to my chair. No getting up using that.

 

[Jinjuku]

Flamed here... Nah... Not here...

The ground issue, there has been some research on another board that some switches have better/proper grounding that others might not have. So the small switch in the right setup could be beneficial.

If there was shielded (STP) cabling in use that was creating a ground loop a small switch that doesn't have any grounding for it's connections (plastic female RJ45) could break ground loop. So could simply swapping out and using a UTP cable.

 

[Jinjuku]

Yes, you are repeating your statement on other ways to test for noise and again didn't address the question. You seem to be missing the point.

Who are these some well respected people, what are their credentials and who respect them( credentials also)?

You tend to generalisations. Please be more informative.

But yet we amazingly have:

1. No names of these well respected people

2. No measurement data about the noise gremlins

I have it from a well respected source that you have an I.Q. of 80. See how that works? No need to question your low I.Q. how we got there. It's good enough that we simply quoted a 'well respected source'.

 

[Jinjuku]

Oh he we go, it's the comparison critics.

Yes to both,

I've tried with at the same volumes, even the USB at louder volumes, all the comparisons and scenarios you would use as a LISTENER
This is not a science experiment in applied physics, I am looking for audible differences to choose a format the will provide the best sound quality.
I've spend years recording music, developing tone for instruments.
I know when bass is tighter, when treble is brighter, detail is more vivid. I know what a drum kit sounds like, what it feels like.

I also can tell the whether the difference is the volume or the change in tonal characteristics.
I have done selections quickly back and forth with the remote, this switches the sources into the DAC instantly.
I have also done long listen sessions in each mode blind tested.

For the record I don't need the approval of the audio sciences guild satisfy my findings as I'm not publishing a paper.
I am putting this out this out there to help fellow audiophiles, ones who may think there is nothing to gain over buying a streamer to just using their laptop and no I don't sell HiFi gear.

You get many people saying there can be no difference in digital data, it's all ones and zeros, technically this does this and that does that. The reality is that is all irrelevant as nobody sits down each night to enjoy music by measuring it with computer equipment, they enjoy music with their ears.

I have other fellow listeners who put many hours and $$$ into getting the best sound possible. I wasn't bias to any source but we have all come to similar conclusions.

The reason I even did this testing is because after borrowing the Chord DAC I wanted to sell my streamer to pay for it, as I thought I wouldn't need it anymore, I could even do higher res files from my laptop via USB. So if anything I was bias towards USB.
But it just didn't sound as could, so now I'll be keeping the streamer and have to find the money elsewhere to buy the Chord DAC, which is better sounding than the DAC in the Cambridge Audio Streamer.

So my 2 best formats for listening to music will be:
Streaming from Tidal with my CXN - It's so convenient, instant music and almost endless selection, superior sound quality.
CD Transport - I will buy CD's of my most favorite music and will also try different CD transports and SACD players to improve quality.of

Maybe this wasn't right place to discuss the audible quality of equipment after looking at the forums name but it's one that popped up when I searched. Hopefully fellow audiophiles search this post and not just scientists.


Enjoy.

You have your answer: CD Transport. What else is there to discuss?

 

[gramp]

Streamer vs a PC:

My biggest fear with a closed box streamer is later if the vendor goes out of business or just decides to stop supporting it. With a device such as a standalone DAC where the controls are on the unit itself and doesn't require any software or apps it'll work forever.

Imagine your streamer requires an android app to control. Then the vendor stops providing software updates. Then the latest version of android is released and your app no longer is supported. You've now got an expensive paper weight. The smaller and more boutique the shop (which is usually correlated with more expensive) the higher the risk of this happening.

If spotify/tidal/roon/your favorite goes away and in the next 5-10 years a new service is the hot new thing, will your streamer device be receiving a firmware upgrade to support it?

With a PC you control everything so it'll always work the way you want it to.


Hardware is stable. Software is always in flux. Ideally for hardware you want quality and software you want control.

 

[ezra_s]

This thread seems to have gone off the tracks a bit so I thought I'd try to get it back on track. I'm trying to answer a question similar as the OP. What is a cost effective way to stream high definition audio from Tidal, Amazon Music, Qobuz, Deezer, etc. Don't think i am looking to stream from a storage device on my network.

There a few options I am considering:

1. iPad with a iPad camera adapter kit feeding one of the highly rated DACs here.
2. A miniDSP SHD. If I went with the Studio version I would feed it to one of the highly rated DACs here or get the SHD with its own DACs. The SHD w/ DACs seems to measure pretty well here.
3. Bluesound Node 2i and feed the coaxial digital out to one of the highly rated DACs here. I would not use the internal DACs.
4. Google Chromecast Audio with a Mini Toslink cable to Toslink cable feeding one of the highly rated DACs here.
5. Aurender, Maxtrix Audio Element, or some other streamer that can act as a Roon endpoint with built in DACs in the 3k price range.

I'm sure there are others I should consider as well?

I feel like getting one of the highly rated DACs that measured well here and sending it a quality digital signal is a more cost effective approach. The all in one boxes are nice but pricey for what I need --- stream audio from Tidal, Amazon Music, etc not from an onboard storage or local storage device. I also feel like any one of the options that feed a digital signal to the DACs would work well. Looking for some feedback on that statement. Is one really any better than another with respect to the digital audio in to the DACs? I've read a bunch here about jitter in the signal so I'm throughly confused on that one. Do some DACs deal better with that than others? Can I avoid that whole conversation with the "right" choice of DACs?

One main consideration here is the control application. On the iPad I could use the Tidal or Amazon music application. The miniDSP I would use the Volumio web browser. The Bluesound I would use the BluOS Controller app. The Chromecast would be via a browser. The Aurender has the Conductor App. The Matrix Audio Element would be via the Roon remote application. I'm not sure which of these apps would be the easiest to use. There are a lot of fans of the Roon remote app but since I not managing a library of music does it matter?

Some things I have considered:

1. Room correction software. Dirac Live on the SHD is a very nice plus. On the others I think i would need to use something like JRiver for room correction. On the other hand, I would only use this to integrate my 2 subs with the mains. Nothing much above 200Hz. This brings me to the next consideration.
2. Subwoofer outputs on the SHD and Node 2i are a plus. I have two subs and would love to be able to listen to them with my front stereo speakers. The Node 2i only has one sub out so i would need something like a miniDSP in order to use both subs. Also by adding the subs I would need some room correction software to properly integrate the mains and subs.
3. Operating any of the solutions via an iPhone is a huge plus. I haven't quite figure out which ones of these solutions would support that yet. Not sure I can control an iPad from an iPhone. I think the Roon remote app runs on an iPhone as well as the BluOS controller app. Think I need an iPad for the Conductor App.

So i was wondering if I could get some input to help me make my decision. Thanks in advance for any help and guidance you can provide.

Well I was doubting what to do, and decided to go the poor way, not regreting it one bit.

a Raspberry Pi 3 w/ Digital output hat w/ PicorePlayer. -> TOSLINK -> MyDAC (RME ADI2)
Goals I had:
* Play tidal through all of it: accomplished.
* Play my muic library mounted in a disc in another device: accomplished.

hope it helps you:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...elp-went-for-diy-with-pi3-picoreplayer.12418/

 

[Jinjuku]

Well I was doubting what to do, and decided to go the poor way, not regreting it one bit.

a Raspberry Pi 3 w/ Digital output hat w/ PicorePlayer. -> TOSLINK -> MyDAC (RME ADI2)
Goals I had:
* Play tidal through all of it: accomplished.
* Play my muic library mounted in a disc in another device: accomplished.

hope it helps you:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...elp-went-for-diy-with-pi3-picoreplayer.12418/

Been doing Pi 3 with Ropiee to my Behringer UMC204HD to my AT headphones for desktop duty and using JRiver as my server.

 

[Pluto]

My biggest fear with a closed box streamer is later if the vendor goes out of business or just decides to stop supporting it

This is not entirely unprecedented. Check out the saga of Squeezebox. Not quite a horror story, but close. @sergeauckland is your man here.

Most streamers use some variant of Linux, an open source operating system. Obviously, the application layer is likely to be proprietary to the vendor in question and, therefore, the vendor is under no obligation to tell anyone anything should they choose to discontinue support. But I ask you, what is the difference between a "streamer" and a Linux-based computer running an appropriate application?

 

[gramp]

But I ask you, what is the difference between a "streamer" and a Linux-based computer running an appropriate application?

Quite a lot

Just because there's a linux kernel running on the device doesn't mean you will be able to continue upgrading, customizing, and using it if the vendor drops support.

Can you ssh to the device directly and install whatever software you want on it?
Is it running a common linux distribution or a custom build? (likely the latter)
Does it have any hardware or firmware enforced restrictions preventing you from running your own services on it? (Maybe, we'll find out when we try)
Can you upgrade to a newer kernel / base system?
Can you install and run a different linux distribution?

And if all the above is theoretically possible, is it practically possible also?

Does it mean I have to be a linux expert and cross compile my own custom kernel for this embedded device's special requirements? And also cross compile my own userland ala http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/ ? That's out of range of most people. Even if you know how to do this stuff it's a hell of a lot of work and debugging.

What happens if I screw up and brick the device? Does it have a recovery mechanism where I can attach JTAG / serial console device to recover it? (likely it does, likely it's not documented proprietary, and no the vendor won't tell you about it)

In these situations the best you can hope for is that you can easily install an off the self linux distro and it boots. Failing that, better hope the device is popular and a hacking community develops around it and people start writing tools to hack on it. For your few thousand dollar fancy boutique streamer, so few people had one to begin with due to the cost, so forget it.

And since it's software is out of date an unsupported, it's worthless on the third party market. You can't sell it either.

 

[Pluto]

...better hope the device is popular and a hacking community develops around it and people start writing tools to hack on it.

This is, more or less, the Squeezebox story.

Personally, I would never buy a proprietary streamer for exactly the reasons you elucidate. The only valid argument in favour of the former is the interface, if truly well designed. A computer at the bedside is just a bit too nerdy...

 

[jimp]

Quite a lot

Just because there's a linux kernel running on the device doesn't mean you will be able to continue upgrading, customizing, and using it if the vendor drops support.

Can you ssh to the device directly and install whatever software you want on it?
Is it running a common linux distribution or a custom build? (likely the latter)
Does it have any hardware or firmware enforced restrictions preventing you from running your own services on it? (Maybe, we'll find out when we try)
Can you upgrade to a newer kernel / base system?
Can you install and run a different linux distribution?

And if all the above is theoretically possible, is it practically possible also?

Does it mean I have to be a linux expert and cross compile my own custom kernel for this embedded device's special requirements? And also cross compile my own userland ala http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/ ? That's out of range of most people. Even if you know how to do this stuff it's a hell of a lot of work and debugging.

What happens if I screw up and brick the device? Does it have a recovery mechanism where I can attach JTAG / serial console device to recover it? (likely it does, likely it's not documented proprietary, and no the vendor won't tell you about it)

In these situations the best you can hope for is that you can easily install an off the self linux distro and it boots. Failing that, better hope the device is popular and a hacking community develops around it and people start writing tools to hack on it. For your few thousand dollar fancy boutique streamer, so few people had one to begin with due to the cost, so forget it.

And since it's software is out of date an unsupported, it's worthless on the third party market. You can't sell it either.

Being a software developer who works on Linux I got a kick out this response. You seems like a software developer or at least someone who has worked in a Linux environment.

 

[gramp]

Well I'm not saying don't buy one. Just know that you're buying something that will eventually become useless and need to be replaced. If you're ok with that go for it! Even regular pc's eventually die so nothing is immune. I'm also a big fan of having as few separate devices on my desk / entertainment stand as possible. I hate boxes and cables. Having an all in one solution is quite nice, and usually they integrate better than a haphazard thing you build yourself.

That being said when the cost is several thousand dollars, throwaway items become much less attractive..

Being a software developer who works on Linux I got a kick out this response. You seems like a software developer or at least someone who has worked in a Linux environment.

I am

 

[jimp]

Well I was doubting what to do, and decided to go the poor way, not regreting it one bit.

a Raspberry Pi 3 w/ Digital output hat w/ PicorePlayer. -> TOSLINK -> MyDAC (RME ADI2)
Goals I had:
* Play tidal through all of it: accomplished.
* Play my muic library mounted in a disc in another device: accomplished.

hope it helps you:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...elp-went-for-diy-with-pi3-picoreplayer.12418/

Thank you for response and the link. Obviously I missed that conversation and it is recent. Shame on me for poor searching.
I read through some of this briefly but need to spend some more time going through it. I had considered a Raspberry Pi at one point but can't remember why I stopped looking it. Based on your experience and others here recommending the Raspberry Pi I need to take a closer look again. One thing I know I'll want is a reasonable nice enclosure since it will be in sight and I have to deal with wife acceptance factor. Some of those she would not be please to look at.

 

[thunderchicken]

You know, I have a Rasp Pi running Volumio and it works really well. I love the thing. It has a completely unnecessary hat with coax out running into a Topping D70. USB would work fine. Volumio and a D30 (or KTB) would probably outperform most "hifi" streamers on the market. Total cost is under $200 and the setup has a tiny footprint. It's ugly, but you can hide it easily because of the small size. My RPi is tucked behind my receiver. Can't tell it's there, and it just works. All of my music is on a 1TB external HDD. It's a super convenient setup.

 

[Jinjuku]

Thank you for response and the link. Obviously I missed that conversation and it is recent. Shame on me for poor searching.
I read through some of this briefly but need to spend some more time going through it. I had considered a Raspberry Pi at one point but can't remember why I stopped looking it. Based on your experience and others here recommending the Raspberry Pi I need to take a closer look again. One thing I know I'll want is a reasonable nice enclosure since it will be in sight and I have to deal with wife acceptance factor. Some of those she would not be please to look at.

Get the Pi 4 and you don't have to worry about it sharing the USB bus with a network connection.

Here is my Pi 3 with something to compare the size to:

 

[sergeauckland]

This is, more or less, the Squeezebox story.

Personally, I would never buy a proprietary streamer for exactly the reasons you elucidate. The only valid argument in favour of the former is the interface, if truly well designed. A computer at the bedside is just a bit too nerdy...

I bought a Squeezebox Touch many years ago, not that long after they came out and hope I never have to replace it. What makes it isn't the hardware, which is fine, but that the software is open source and maintained by a community of enthusiasts. Every time the BBC change their streaming method and render a load of devices obsolete, the Squeezebox community develop the new software and a few days later we're back in service. With any proprietary device, it seems the attitude is if it goes obsolete, tough, buy a new one!

The BBC are notorious for changing the streaming format to make people use their approved apps or supported devices. They, and it seems most device manufacturers like Apple have little interest in whether they render a 10 year old device obsolete by some change in format or new 'feature' There's no requirement ever to ensure backwards compatibility.

Compare that to the hoops radio and TV broadcasters and LP manufacturers went to to ensure that FM stereo and LPs were mono compatible.

Ditto TV with colour, the NTSC PAL & SECAM colour systems all had to be black and white compatible. The idea of rendering obsolete existing devices was anathema. Not any more.

S

 

[Sal1950]

Get the Pi 4 and you don't have to worry about it sharing the USB bus with a network connection.
Here is my Pi 3 with something to compare the size to:

That's a really small and silent option. Where are you storing your music library etc?
I take it you have a monitor to see what your doing?
I've done everything from my desktop PC since my entry into file based music, sometime around 2005, with a Linux OS. I used to network my music library from the PC's room to my living-room system via a laptop there. Now in much smaller quarters I no longer have any need to network. I love being able to do everything I want with music, store, stream, rip, control, all from one place.
My only real consideration at this point is to get my PC quieter or silent some day.

 

[Jinjuku]

That's a really small and silent option. Where are you storing your music library etc?
I take it you have a monitor to see what your doing?
I've done everything from my desktop PC since my entry into file based music, sometime around 2005, with a Linux OS. I used to network my music library from the PC's room to my living-room system via a laptop there. Now in much smaller quarters I no longer have any need to network. I love being able to do everything I want with music, store, stream, rip, control, all from one place.
My only real consideration at this point is to get my PC quieter or silent some day.

It has Apache running so you get at it via a web browser. I simply used Etcher to burn the ISO to MicroSD and plugged into my Cisco Switch and issued a 'show arp'. The OUI for Raspberry Pi is b827 and Bob's your uncle:

 

[Jinjuku]

Where are you storing your music library etc?

Picked up a Dell R620 off of Ebay

It's my file server, it's my NAC, it's my GNS3 server, my Terminal server, My VM machine. 64GB RAM, SSD for OS, Spinners in a RAID for data.

Added a 10/100/1000 Copper and 10GBe daughter card for $19:

Cisco 2390 with 4 SFP+ (10GBe) for $60.

So my main music pc is based on a fanless ASRock 3150 with a no noise SeaSonic ATX PSU and a 10GBe Solar Flare PCI-e 2.0 8X NIC.
I routinely get 332MB.