Small midrange in 3 way system

[Digital_Thor]

Hi all

Right now I play with a system, that consist of a Seas DXT, RS125 and two SB23NRX with 4 x 12" subwoofers. Everything is controlled by a 8 channel pre-amp with DSP.
Really like the tweeter - easy to integrate with the midrange. And the midrange is so very important - but how to chose wisely?
Overall system sensitivity is not a problem, since I have individually digitally controlled analog volume for each channel. But still some kind of evenness seems to be wise. So maybe since I've focused on horisontal dispersion, by crossing at 2kHz with a waveguided tweeter - an MTM could be interesting?
A pair of SS 10F comes to mind, maybe the SBMW13TX.... but maybe someone has an idea?
Mid-woofers are up for debate too.... like maybe go for 6-7" to better support the smaller midranges - since they are fully supported in the low end by subwoofers.

 

[Zvu]

If money is no problem, nothing beats ScanSpeak 10f

 

[Digital_Thor]

Really? What makes it special for my kind of use? The Qms, the low moving mass, the FR, or something that I missed - like just experience? Have you worked with it? And how can one look at 10F and say... it's just better than 15CAC, 15TX, Dayton RS, Seas Excell, TangBand 4W, Purifi and others.... I might not know of yet.
I mean, it would the first speaker with smaller midranges than tweeter - I guess And I could buy 4 of these to counter sensitivity and power requiresments..... + parring them with good mid-woofers to make everything smooth.

 

[Zvu]

- It has linear frequency response.
- No resonances anywhere near the intended passband.
- Very low distortion.
- No serious breakup to deal with.
- Small diameter that allows better driver integration at higher crossover point.

These are direct but there are indirect benefits too.

- Enables higher crossover frequency than usuall (3-3.5kHz) that relieves the strain on tweeter.
- Lowers the tweeter cost: most midpriced tweeters behave stellar at 3kHz but very few work well at 2kHz.

Others midranges mentioned are excellent at some aspects but mediocre at others. 10f4424/10f8424 is so well ballanced that only thing i could say is that it misses some sensitivity but it has only 36cm2 of cone area. One is good, two are better. For ultimate regular loudspeaker (not ultimate concept of course - what is that???) i'd use some 8"-10"alu cone woofer/s, two 10f's in mtm and Bliesma T25B-6 tweeter.

https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/scan-speak/scanspeak-10f4424g00
https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/bliesma/bliesma-t25b-6

 

[Draki]

^What he said....
10F is very well behaved, smooth, doesn't need complex x/o. I am using a single 4424 with Scan 22W8534 and SB26STCN, at 750 and 3K5 and had to pad it down a little - it is indeed very sensitive. Two of them serially in MTM with a small flange tweeter would be a killer. Add bass to taste.

 

[McFly]

Another vote the scan 10f. I have 4 of them here. Great as midranges or woofer assisted widebanders/fullrangers.

 

[Chrise36]

Or you can try with two 6" Faital 6Rs140 as midwoofers in mtm
https://audioxpress.com/article/test-bench-faital-pro-6rs140-midwoofer-midrange

 

[headshake]

@Digital_Thor ,I think you need to define the max spl's you want and the rough XO point of the subs before you pick. If the distortion of the sb23nrxs45 is the same, then 200hz-2khz is what you want for your mid. That seems like a big ask for a 3".

https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/sbacoustics/sb-acoustics-sb23nrxs45-8

With the enclosure tool in VCAD you can compare drivers.

Enables higher crossover frequency than usuall (3-3.5kHz) that relieves the strain on tweeter.

By strain, do you mean distortion? Is it a good idea to mess with the power and decay where ears are most sensitive? 2khz to 5khz.

It seems like the DXT can play 2khz without issue? The DX-mon has a 1950hz LR4 XO.

https://heissmann-acoustics.de/en/dxt-mon-182/

 

[MrPeabody]

The 10f is probably as good as it gets for smallish midrange. However if you decide to do MTM, then in my opinion the two midrange drivers need to be very small, so that the center-to-center distance will be small, so as to avoid the comb filtering effect encountered vertically off-axis, above and below the horizontal, in the upper part of the frequency band covered by the midrange. The flange of the DXT is small enough that you can probably get away with MTM, but there probably aren't any advantages assuming that you'll use phase-coherent (LR2 or LR4) crossover slopes (acoustically). And no matter how small the two midranges, you'll still likely end up with some mild comb filtering between 1 kHz and 2 kHz.

A couple other drivers that might be worth consideration:

Eton 3-212/C8/25 HEX Symphony II

SB Acoustics SB12MNRX2-25-04

 

[Zvu]

By strain, do you mean distortion? Is it a good idea to mess with the power and decay where ears are most sensitive? 2khz to 5khz.

It seems like the DXT can play 2khz without issue? The DX-mon has a 1950hz LR4 XO.

Why wouldn't it be a good idea ?

With respect to Heissmans decisions, it was his choice to cross those drivers at that frequency because of limitations of drivers he used. He also made a center speaker with crossover frequency centered at 3kHz. He used 4" midrange so he could crossover higher.

 

[Digital_Thor]

Thank you all
I do see a point in both the really nice smooth response, from both the Bliesma and the 10F. And I'm kinda game, if the price reflects quality of sound. I'm not even sure what to expect from a BE tweeter in contrast to the DXT, which I'm actually happy with. It's the little RS125 that lacks sensitivity right now... even though it plays rather loud. It seems like the most power in music is within the lower frequencies.... from around 300hz and down.
Right now I cross my subs at 110hz 96dB LR. two SB23NRX 80hz 6dB and 450hz 24dB LR - and then Dayton RS125 at 450 to 2kHz. Finally Seas DXT from 2kHz.
I thought of using two RS180 or RS225 for midwoofer duty. Why is a driver like the TX og CAC from SB not good? Why worry about breakup, when they are pistonic within bandpass and I can easily lower the breakup precisely with my DSP?

 

[Keith Conroy]

Digital Thor.............I think you have been getting some very good advice from others. In my career I have designed quite a few drivers thru the years. It is very important to define the sensitivity you require & the crossover point needed. Someone already stated this. keep in mind, if you look at TS data its usually going to be small signal. This has some value. However with the advent of klippel large signal analysis its value is somewhat dated. Of course there is no substitute for being able to listen before purchase. I will list some items that are current state of the art design features. This might help your shopping.

1. look at large signal Klippel Analysis data if possible.
2. Look at TeXtreme cone material
3. Cast frame/Open basket under spider venting
4. FEA Designed NEO motor
5. Fiberglass voice coil former
6. Copper shorting sleeve on pole............with another shorted path above pole piece.

From a brand standpoint SB-Acoustics.............Seas............Eton...........Faital..............are all great brands with excellent unit to unit consistency. Dayton Audio does have a few good designs. however for me their unit to unit consistency is a question mark?? On Faital products keep in mind most of these designs are done for Pro Audio use. This means they has slightly different design criteria then home audio product.

If you are forced to look at small signal TS data look at BL/Sensitivity/Moving Mass/Freq. response (on & off axis).........On BL look at BL squared divided by RE......Of course the higher the number the better. Then use this number and calculate a ratio between it & the moving mass.
General Poly Cones will sound smoother...........Metal will have more detail, but breakup modes can be a problem. TeXtreme is a fairly new material that falls in between.

Of course there are a dozen other things to look at. Some beyond the scope of this e-mail! If you wish to get hold of me one on one I'll be glad to give you some model choices??.................GOOD LUCK!!

 

[bigjacko]

I found those two mid range from hificompass:
https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/vifa/vifa-tc6fc00-04
https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/tectonic/tectonic-tebm46c20n-4b

Do you prefer better directivity or other things? Those two drivers are the one I can find online with best directivity for crossover to tweeter. Tectonic is a popular mid range driver, Dennis use it in BMR too. Vifa has a bit better directivity, higher second harmonic and lower third harmonic.

 

[Zvu]

.......... Why is a driver like the TX og CAC from SB not good? Why worry about breakup, when they are pistonic within bandpass and I can easily lower the breakup precisely with my DSP?

It's not that they aren't good. Depending what you're after, they might be miles ahead of what i proposed here. There are no bad transducers mentioned in this thread in my opinion.

If you will use steep acoustic slopes and are in need only for 450-2000Hz then you could try:

Similar concept to what you are using now (but better motor) with ZA14W08. Performance is quite impressive and comparable to very expensive midwoofers/midranges.

https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/zaph-audio/zaph-audio-za14w08

If you need high sensitivity, you won't lack dynamics with just one B&C 6PEV13, measured by TG.

Pair of Wavecor WF152BD06 could be just the thing you need. We know they work great with DXT because Alexander measured them.

You've asked about opinions - we gave it to you. Most of our opinions are backed up by objective measurements. Nobody can know what will sound best for you. Eventually you will have to buy some midranges and make test cabinets.

Kef coaxes are the best for me so i bought them and don't care about driver spacing and lobes. For me, they sound better than almost anything. But that's me.

Maybe you should think about what is it that you don't like in RS125 you are using now and try to avoid it. It is much easier when you know what you don't like. For me it is plastic cones. No matter how exclusive or expensive, midrange sound overly damped to me. I stopped looking at those drivers after comparing old Dynaudio 22W75 (paper cone) and newer 24W75 (plastic cone).

 

[Digital_Thor]

This is all great information - properly some of the best responses I ever had actually It deserves some in depth answers, which I will work on now and respond tomorrow Gotta work, feed, listen to music and sleep too

 

[swampbrain]

Purifi 6.5" !?

 

[Hipper]

The biggest improvement I got to the mid range was by controlling the bass.

It was not by buying new gear (this can have an impact of course but providing you've got competent equipment you should be OK).

In my case this was done by careful positioning of speakers and listening chair, room treatment, and EQ. Others also use sub woofers and DSP. Any one, or better a combination of these, can help.

 

[Rick Sykora]

Good midranges are few and far between IME. After I complete the first Directiva, plan to return to doing a 3-way design. I recently picked up the Seas MU10, but have not had any real time with it.

Given Linkwitz use of it, seems like a good bet. Anyone else tried it?

 

[Zvu]

If i were to judge by datasheet, it doesn't look promising.

http://www.seas.no/index.php?option...id=107:h1658-04-mu10rb-sl&catid=46&Itemid=240

 

[peanuts]

mu10 is fine. low mms is a key point to better midrange.