Small column speaker with cardioid radiation from bass to the mids - Kling & Freitag PIA M - PA speakers lead the way

[test1223]

Hello,

controlled directivity from 150Hz to 20kHz with a slim column speaker, cardioid from the mids to the bass, adjustable high frequency dispersion and lots of headroom. If that sounds interesting to you have a look at the Kling & Freitag PIA M.

Homepage:

PIA M - Kling & Freitag Sound Systems

www.kling-freitag.com

Datasheet:

https://www.kling-freitag.com/content/uploads/ds_pia-m_en.pdf

Despite the PA design the speaker might be a very good option to build a very good stereo or multichannel hifi system with higher listening distance if you can avoid the pa speaker/ amp hiss.

The price is about 3200€ per speaker and an appropriate amp is needed to unlock all features (if my understanding is correct). It isn't cheap but reasonable. PA prices and innovation are way better than hifi prices and innovation. Let's hope for some trickle down effects...

Best
Thomas

 

[sarumbear]

controlled directivity from 150Hz to 20kHz with a slim column speaker, cardioid from the mids to the bass, adjustable high frequency dispersion and lots of headroom. If that sounds interesting to you have a look at the Kling & Freitag PIA M.

I don’t see anything resembling to what you say at the company measurements.

https://www.kling-freitag.com/content/uploads/ds_pia-m_en.pdf

 

[LTig]

Hard to belIeve that four 4" woofers are able to emit 132 dB SPL at 10% THD ...

 

[sarumbear]

Hard to belIeve that four 4" woofers are able to emit 132 dB SPL at 10% THD ...

You need 4x 4” drivers that has Xmax of around 3” in order to create 132dBSPL at 100Hz. A cone that moves as much as it’s diameter!

Someone is lying through their teeth

 

[abdo123]

You need 4x 4” drivers that has Xmax of around 3” in order to create 132dBSPL at 100Hz. A cone that moves as much as it’s diameter!

Since they're very aggressively highpassed the drivers won't be suspension limited but rather force factor limited which would increase the linear excursion. We're looking at probably around 120dB at best if we consider a generous 1 cm of excursion. So yeah these specs are a little shady.

 

[test1223]

I don’t see anything resembling to what you say at the company measurements.

View attachment 222608

https://www.kling-freitag.com/content/uploads/ds_pia-m_en.pdf

I can see the cardioid behavior starting from 125Hz and controlled directivity. What was your expectation?

Hard to belIeve that four 4" woofers are able to emit 132 dB SPL at 10% THD ...

Since they're very aggressively highpassed the drivers won't be suspension limited but rather force factor limited which would increase the linear excursion. We're looking at probably around 120dB at best if we consider a generous 1 cm of excursion.

You are right that it seems to high. Maximum SPL (Peak @ max. 10% THD) is not that specific. It might be the maximum at one frequency or "typical" in room response. Than you have boundary loaded bass. The optional high pass is at about 127Hz with about 650W peak 132 dB might be true but I haven't checked if this might be true.

 

[tmtomh]

I'm not a basehead, but if I read the spec sheet correctly it's a three-way speaker with an F3 of 102Hz. No thanks.

 

[sarumbear]

Since they're very aggressively highpassed the drivers won't be suspension limited but rather force factor limited which would increase the linear excursion. We're looking at probably around 120dB at best if we consider a generous 1 cm of excursion. So yeah these specs are a little shady.

I used 100Hz because they are high passed. Even at the -3dB at 184Hz spec they give you need almost an inch excursion, which is not geometrically possible for such a small driver.

 

[sarumbear]

I can see the cardioid behavior starting from 125Hz and controlled directivity. What was your expectation?

Cardioid means no (or much reduced) emission from the rear. I don't see that in the patterns they show.

 

[test1223]

Cardioid means no (or much reduced) emission from the rear. I don't see that in the patterns they show.

Is about -10dB not enough?

 

[sarumbear]

Is about -10dB not enough?

Not really when the response specs are already given at -10dB. Besides, where do you see that on the plots?

 

[test1223]

Not really when the response specs are already given at -10dB. Besides, where do you see that on the plots?

You have to have a second look at the figure. There is no -10dB at the 0° axis and there is an attenuation of about 10dB or more at 125Hz to 500Hz at 180° which is very impressive and can't be achieved with a standard small width speaker.

 

[sarumbear]

You have to have a second look at the figure.
View attachment 222639

It shows that rear emission at 125Hz is on a average -10dB. That’s not cardioid. It’s just a beamy speaker.

 

[test1223]

It shows that rear emission at 125Hz is on a average -10dB. That’s not cardioid. It’s just a beamy speaker.

Even very big standard speakers with a wide baffle bigger than 1m didn't provide 10dB attenuation at 125Hz. In the higher frequencies like 300Hz you can get much higher attention but not at 125Hz.

It is of cause no perfect cardioid, but there is no speaker which can provide a perfect cardioid pattern at 125Hz and ME Geithain or Kii speaker are also called cardioid with a similar attenuation since it is significantly higher than any standard speaker can provide.

 

[sarumbear]

Even very big standard speakers with a wide baffle bigger than 1m didn't provide 10dB attenuation at 125Hz. In the higher frequencies like 300Hz you can get much higher attention but not at 125Hz.

A large baffle does not give you a cardioid pattern. Wavelengths of 100Hz is almost 3.5m.

It is of cause no perfect cardioid, but there is no speaker which can provide a perfect cardioid pattern at 125Hz

Not perfect but at -20dB rear emission it is much nearer to a cardioid.

https://dutchdutch.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/8c-Spec-Sheet-2019.pdf

 

[test1223]

I'm not a basehead, but if I read the spec sheet correctly it's a three-way speaker with an F3 of 102Hz. No thanks.

Yes it needs a subwoofer.

A large baffle does not give you a cardioid pattern. Wavelengths of 100Hz is almost 3.5m.

Yes, therefore 10dB backwards attenuation with a small column speaker is very impressive, since even a very large standard speaker provide almost no attenuation in these frequencies.

Not perfect but at -20dB rear emission it is much nearer to a cardioid.

https://dutchdutch.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/8c-Spec-Sheet-2019.pdf

Yes the Dutch & Dutch is also an impressive speaker. It provides a better cardioid pattern but it also has a 8" driver and therefore a wider baffle. Despite the larger driver and box the distortion in the bass is quite high, which shows the difficulty to design a small column cardioid PA speaker.

I don't know a speaker which provides a similar performance like the PIA M. There isn't a big choise of cardioid like speakers anyway. Therefore I am confused why you are so negative from the beginning of this thread? I think cardioid like speakers are the future and I am happy when I see more such designs.

 

[sarumbear]

Yes the Dutch & Dutch is also an impressive speaker. It provides a better cardioid pattern but it also has a 8" driver and therefore a wider baffle. Despite the larger driver and box the distortion in the bass is quite high, which shows the difficulty to design a small column cardioid PA speaker.

You seem to have not understand how a cardioid response if formed. It has nothing to do with the baffle size but to do with part of the sound output being fed out of phase to the rear and/or back.

I don't know a speaker which provides a similar performance like the PIA M. There isn't a big choise of cardioid like speakers anyway.

Tower Columns — 1 SOUND

The Tower line arrays are cardioid compact columns. They have high SPL, rear cancellation, and feature Clarity Technology, a proprietary high-frequency technology.

www.1-sound.com

Column loudspeakers | d&b audiotechnik

Consistent sound in usual d&b quality: ✓ high german performance standard ✓ individual varnish ✓ subtle look ✓ weatherproof. More abour d&b column PA systems.

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LD Systems MAUI® 44 G2 | MAUI® Series | LD Systems

Column systems have literally revolutionized numerous application areas for bands and DJs. Never has it been easier to provide a consistent sound solution from a simple, inconspicuous PA system - even in large spaces. The MAUI® 44 G2 is...

www.ld-systems.com

Therefore I am confused why you are so negative from the beginning of this thread? I think cardioid like speakers are the future and I am happy when I see more such designs.

PIA M is a PA speaker, optimised for voice. It is not a Hi-Fi speaker hence it doesn't float my boat. Besides, there is nothing new with this speaker. The design had been around in the PA world for a while. Their sole purpose is to reduce the chance of microphone feedback.

 

[test1223]

You seem to have not understand how a cardioid response if formed. It has nothing to do with the baffle size but to do with part of the sound output being fed out of phase to the rear and/or back.

You seem to do not understand what I was trying to explain. A standard speaker gets its beaming from the size of the driver and baffle. Such designs are the fix point to compare a potential better design.
A added flow resistance or driver for cardioid behavior can achieve more backwards damping which adds to the damping capability of the speakers without the cardioid part. The cardioid behavior also takes away max spl capability therefore you have to make some compromises especially with a PA design.

Thank you that you showed other column speaker with cardioid designs. I wasn't aware that such designs are out there. I only had seen some box like PA cardioid speaker. Good to see more such designs

PIA M is a PA speaker, optimised for voice. It is not a Hi-Fi speaker hence it doesn't float my boat. Besides, there is nothing new with this speaker. The design had been around in the PA world for a while. Their sole purpose is to reduce the chance of out of side microphone feedback.

It might be the main advantage to reduce microphone feedback in the PA case, but it will increase the fidelity as well which is very interesting for hifi usage. In the review of the LD Maui 44 G2 the sound was also described as hifi grade.

 

[sarumbear]

You seem to do not understand what I was trying to explain. A standard speaker gets its beaming from the size of the driver and baffle. Such designs are the fix point to compare a potential better design.

I do understand what you are explaining but you are wrong. A logical size large speaker baffle, about 1m is not enough to stop frequencies below 100Hz to beam. The wavelength of 100Hz signal is 3.5m. The pressure waves will go around that baffle as if it is not there. Do please study wave theory.

Thank you that you showed other column speaker with cardioid designs. I wasn't aware that such designs are out there. I only had seen some box like PA cardioid speaker. Good to see more such designs

You are very welcome. Cardioid design had been the cornerstone of PA design for line arrays on the market for quarter of a century.

It might be the main advantage to reduce microphone feedback in the PA case, but it will increase the fidelity as well which is very interesting for hifi usage. In the review of the LD Maui 44 G2 the sound was also described as hifi grade.

Cardioid pattern on Hi-Fi always had interest. The actual benefits are to be seen though. That is because most cardioid Hi-Fi speakers are also excellent speakers by themselves. We do not have a clear understanding whether it is that excellence or the cardioid pattern that makes us like the speaker.

However, no speaker with -3dB at 184Hz can be called a Hi-Fi speaker in any definition of the word. You cannot even use a subwoofer with it either as almost no subwoofer on the market will work that high.

 

[test1223]

A logical size large speaker baffle, about 1m is not enough to stop frequencies below 100Hz to beam. The wavelength of 100Hz signal is 3.5m. The pressure waves will go around that baffle as if it is not there. Do please study wave theory.

Sorry, but you misinterpret my post. I wrote earlier:

..., since even a very large standard speaker provide almost no attenuation in these frequencies.

You can get half a dB or so with big standard designs at around 100Hz.

Cardioid design had been the cornerstone of PA design for line arrays on the market for quarter of a century.

Do you have any link or information of a PA cardioid line array from the late nineties? Is it really that old? Even line arrays weren't that common in these days. Longer time before there were PA "cardioid" bass arrangements of multiple boxes but it was more like changing the phase of some "filler subs" and the whole thing wasn't well unterstand or executed, as far as I know (small bandwidth cardioid due to no proper phase alignment over frequency). ME Geithain introduced the first passive commercial cardioid speaker around 2002. After that, a long time didn't happen much, right?

We do not have a clear understanding whether it is that excellence or the cardioid pattern that makes us like the speaker.

There is plenty of research which investigates the importance of the first wave front, the direcivity of lower mids and bass and the interaction with the room acoustics and stuff. At least above the Schroeder frequency it is save to say that it provides benefits in most rooms.

However, no speaker with -3dB at 184Hz can be called a Hi-Fi speaker in any definition of the word. You cannot even use a subwoofer with it either as almost no subwoofer on the market will work that high.

184Hz might cause some trouble if there is a predefined LFE mix in some multichannel recordings and the crossover of the AV-Receiver isn't capable of spiting the rest to the sub. Most subs /DSPs can be adjusted to around 200Hz crossover frequency. The "full range cardioid" mode provides -3dB @145Hz which should also be fine for most scenarios.