Size does matter for music?

[Sokel]

Chest thump in particular is mainly from 80hz and below as the article notes, though. Not upper bass.

Strangely not only.
It's the whole 50-60Hz to 200Hz area at once.

I did a simple test,I crossed my woofers to mids at 100Hz instead of their normal 250Hz and I instantly kissed the impact good-buy without any visual change in FR.
(big-ish 3 way,150 lt )

The other thing that the old speakers that gave that feeling had was big (and often broad) cabinets.I don't know what this contributes to this but it was common as it is in the PA speakers which they only go down to 50-60Hz but they kick like mules.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Strangely not only.
It's the whole 50-60Hz to 200Hz area at once.

I did a simple test,I crossed my woofers to mids at 100Hz instead of their normal 250Hz and I instantly kissed the impact good-buy without any visual change in FR.
(big-ish 3 way,150 lt )

The other thing that the old speakers that gave that feeling had was big (and often broad) cabinets.I don't know what this contributes to this but it was common as it is in the PA speakers which they only go down to 50-60Hz but they kick like mules.

I think this is what I experienced from switching from my Infinity Kappa 7.2i (3-way 10" woofer) to 8.2i (4-way 12" woofer) The latter obviously crossed lower on the woofer than the smaller 3-way. The smaller 3-way had more "kick, slam" without EQ than the 8.2i. I had to change the slope in my house curve to get that back and more.

7.2i crossover to 10" woofer from 7,5 cm. midrange = 500 Hz
8.2i crossover to 12" woofer from 16,5 cm mid-bass coupler = 180 Hz

So there may be some truth to what your experiment shows.
Many "full range" PA speakers, stage monitors, have one or two 12" or 15" with only a horn or maybe in addition a high-mid transducer. The woofer covers a wide range of the spectrum and may not go very low (50-60 Hz F3) but, as you say, "kick like a mule". Examples of similar style speakers are Cerwin Vegas and older Klipsch like KP-2002. There is not much "rumble in the jungle" with these but they are capable of hitting your chest.

 

[Sokel]

I think this is what I experienced from switching from my Infinity Kappa 7.2i (3-way 10" woofer) to 8.2i (4-way 12" woofer) The latter obviously crossed lower on the woofer than the smaller 3-way. The smaller 3-way had more "kick, slam" without EQ than the 8.2i. I had to change the slope in my house curve to get that back and more.

7.2i crossover to 10" woofer from 7,5 cm. midrange = 500 Hz
8.2i crossover to 12" woofer from 16,5 cm mid-bass coupler = 180 Hz

So there may be some truth to what your experiment shows.
Many "full range" PA speakers, stage monitors, have one or two 12" or 15" with only a horn or maybe in addition a high-mid transducer. The woofer covers a wide range of the spectrum and may not go very low (50-60 Hz F3) but, as you say, "kick like a mule". Examples of similar style speakers are Cerwin Vegas and older Klipsch like KP-2002. There is not much "rumble in the jungle" with these but they are capable of hitting your chest.

Is not just impact,stuff starts feeling thin without a hefty mid-bass.Recordings that are a little strident is simply unlistenable (to me) .

The classical I listen to has it's main bulk of energy there,building a nice crescendo needs a lot of air down there and as the brass is rising can either be painfully thin or divine depending of the strong base this area gives.

Just listen the intro (The Sea and Sinbad's Ship) of Scheherazade with Reiner's CSO,normally it must blow you away with it's strength,it's impactful just by the energy of the brass.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

Happy holidays to you all! Welcome to @CrankyOldMan !!

It would be better if we knew a bit about the ancillary equipment and the room. Those are important .. else we (you included) will be lost in an ocean of speculation. and ...I am a bit surprised that this has not been suggested more: You need to measure. Very seldom in audio reproduction that you just drop a speaker in an environment and achieve bliss... It doesn't usually (as in 99% ) happen that way. You must measure. In the bass things are much more complicated. The addition of the best subwoofer in the world, in any system, won't automatically results in better bass... it could actually lead to the contrary, as the subwoofer could now, excite modes in the room you never knew existed because the previous speakers (or subwoofer) didn't reach low enough.
And... for all the talk about displacement it is all relative. Some 12 inchers displace much more than a given 15 inchers .. so...
Ancillary equipment?
And,
Are you willing to measure? and report to us?
if Yes, it will cost you about $125, to acquire a good measurements microphone: the miniDSP UMik-1.. and download the free (but donation recommended ) REW. Many, here will guide you through the process.

Happy holidays!

Peace.

 

[Deleted member 69358]

Chest thump in particular is mainly from 80hz and below as the article notes, though. Not upper bass.

Anyway if you really want to know what's going on you should get a UMIK1 and use REW to run some proper sweeps at increasing output levels. It's basic, required equipment and knowhow for setting up speakers anywhere, IMO.

Then you can make a graph like this and see at what frequencies you have problems.

Article says 100-200hz and possibly up to 250hz.

I identified the frequencies with a sound meter at around 125hz and 250hz and are in stereo. A consistent pattern with a lot of 70s and 80s music.

I noticed many PA subwoofers cross over at 500hz whereas home setups are way lower.

Really is just a specific sound signature I am looking for with just a limited range of music which is probably contrary to everything HiFi and what most consider good music.

Gonna look in some thrift stores for some old big woofer speakers or buy a super cheap PA sub connected to a FOSI amp. Or maybe a JBL partybox, LOL.

 

[DBA ndreas]

PA subs usually cross to the satellite speakers at 80 to 150 Hz, so quite similar to HiFi setups. 500 Hz makes no sense at all. Never buy cheap toy PA speakers or subwoofers. Itˋs not worth it.

 

[Deleted member 69358]

Hi

Happy holidays to you all! Welcome to @CrankyOldMan !!

It would be better if we knew a bit about the ancillary equipment and the room. Those are important .. else we (you included) will be lost in an ocean of speculation. and ...I am a bit surprised that this has not been suggested, more. You need to measure. Very seldom in audio reproduction that you just drop a speaker in an environment and achieve bliss... It doesn't usually (as in 99% ) happen that way. You must measure. In the bass things are much more complicated. The addition of the best subwoofer in the world, in any system, won't automatically results in better bass... it could actually lead to the contrary, as the subwoofer could now, excite modes in the room you never knew existed because the previous speakers (or subwoofer) didn't reach low enough.
And... for all the talk about displacement it is all relative. Some 12 inchers displace much more than a given 15 inchers .. so...
Ancillary equipment?
And,
Are you willing to measure? and report to us?
if Yes, it will cost you about $125, to acquire a good measurements microphone: the miniDSP UMik-1.. and download the free (but donation recommended ) REW. Many, here will guide you through the process.

Happy holidays!

Peace.

Hi thank you. Happy holidays to you also.

In time I will probably invest in some equipment for testing or at least to run the DIRAC calibration, for now, I have to rely on an Android app. I have to figure out how to screenshot on my Android phone and will post.

The room that system is in and the wall it is on will never have good acoustics. Thin frames walls with a huge tiled bathroom behind it.

The 15" JBLs were perfect in that room(actually have been perfect in every room over the past years), when I replaced them with the 5.25" JBL towers, the music started lacking that 125hz to 250hz range.

I kick myself for not buying the dual 8" Infinity when they were on sale for so cheap.

I guess in 2023, few people are looking for that frat party sound

 

[Prana Ferox]

I noticed many PA subwoofers cross over at 500hz whereas home setups are way lower.

These aren't subs, these are bass bins / kick bins. At most in the home you find these under large horns like some of the old Klipschs or more DIY stuff.

Home subwoofers cross over low where, in a normal home-sized room, bass becomes non-directional. The bass frequencies above that affect stereo perception so they are kept with the hopefully capable mains. If you move reproduction of those frequencies to different cabinets it can feel like the singer / instrument is moving around in an unintended manner. (And it will be hard to amplify and integrate.)

In a PA application directional perception is not a priority. The effort is going to be in getting sufficient SPL sound to the entire audience without having massive hot and dead spots. There are edge cases but frequencies <80hz (the number varies) are often difficult to reproduce (outside) or control (in a large room where the main absorber is constantly moving people) so they're often just highpassed out.

For your 'vintage hard rock' examples that will certainly be the case, the bass amp equipment of the day didn't go anywhere that low, the bass guitar fundamental at least down to the low E was nearly discarded (that's fine) so what you've got are the kick drum, and then all the higher bass harmonics.

A lot of what you're looking for is what the 'Value Buster Subwoofer System' was intended for, yes it's called a subwoofer but you'll note peak output is 150hz and a lot of people deployed them alongside purpose-built subs for LFE frequencies. Adding big bass bins and dumping hundreds of watts into them is a pretty major interior decorating step from '5 1/4" towers so this is not a jump I am recommending at once.

 

[norman bates]

Yea, ya can't get a 3 way with a 15" easily nowadays.

Klipsch cornwall, at what, $6,600 ?

I do the frat party sound.
Kid rock, nine inch nails, puddle of mud, falling in reverse, rap.......

I like the bass to beat me up sometimes, that 80-200hz range, especially lifting weights.


At the end of the day, it is up to you what makes YOU happy.



My problem is sometimes i crank it (i am a bass head), most of the time is background, but sometimes I want to hear more "into" a recording.
I hate worrying I will blow smaller speakers.

Problem solved, have multiple speakers.........

 

[Sancus]

Really is just a specific sound signature I am looking for with just a limited range of music which is probably contrary to everything HiFi and what most consider good music.

Gonna look in some thrift stores for some old big woofer speakers or buy a super cheap PA sub connected to a FOSI amp. Or maybe a JBL partybox, LOL.

If you use two subs each placed near a main speaker, you can run them a lot higher as well. People have put crossovers as high as 200-300hz doing this. So that is an option you could try with your existing subs possibly. Not all subs behave well when run that high, though.

 

[norman bates]

Nicely put.

 

[eboleyn]

Hi thank you. Happy holidays to you also.

In time I will probably invest in some equipment for testing or at least to run the DIRAC calibration, for now, I have to rely on an Android app. I have to figure out how to screenshot on my Android phone and will post.

The room that system is in and the wall it is on will never have good acoustics. Thin frames walls with a huge tiled bathroom behind it.

The 15" JBLs were perfect in that room(actually have been perfect in every room over the past years), when I replaced them with the 5.25" JBL towers, the music started lacking that 125hz to 250hz range.

I kick myself for not buying the dual 8" Infinity when they were on sale for so cheap.

I guess in 2023, few people are looking for that frat party sound

IMO, the whole "speaker response down to XX Hz" thing for most speakers, especially bookshelf/monitor speakers, is kind of a Red Herring anyway.

Yes there might be response down to those lower frequencies at low output levels, BUT when raising the output levels, you quickly get compression and then just loss of output at lower frequencies. Many floor-standers will fail to produce their full output range at 80 Hz, much less at say 60 Hz or 50 Hz!

So, subs can help with the "below 80 Hz" thing, but getting clean output in that 80 Hz - 300 Hz range you're concerned about without loss of output at ... er ... "frat party levels" still requires bigger drivers than many would imagine. Sometimes people also use stereo subs which can drive cleanly above 80 Hz colocated with their main speakers while crossing higher than 80 Hz to account for those issues, too.

 

[MarkS]

Many of us don't need or want "frat party levels".

 

[norman bates]

Absolutely

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Many of us don't need or want "frat party levels".

But many of us do.
Or at least want our systems to be capable for those moments.

 

[Kvalsvoll]

But many of us do.
Or at least want our systems to be capable for those moments.

"I don't always listen at full volume, but when I do.."

Of course we do. And a large system also sounds much better at low volume, something that is often ignored, it is not just about capacity.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

"I don't always listen at full volume, but when I do.."

Of course we do. And a large system also sounds much better at low volume, something that is often ignored, it is not just about capacity.

 

[Deleted member 69358]

"I don't always listen at full volume, but when I do.."

Of course we do. And a large system also sounds much better at low volume, something that is often ignored, it is not just about capacity.

Yes.

 

[jomo]

Hi thank you. Happy holidays to you also.

In time I will probably invest in some equipment for testing or at least to run the DIRAC calibration, for now, I have to rely on an Android app. I have to figure out how to screenshot on my Android phone and will post.

The room that system is in and the wall it is on will never have good acoustics. Thin frames walls with a huge tiled bathroom behind it.

The 15" JBLs were perfect in that room(actually have been perfect in every room over the past years), when I replaced them with the 5.25" JBL towers, the music started lacking that 125hz to 250hz range.

I kick myself for not buying the dual 8" Infinity when they were on sale for so cheap.

If you are running JBL Stage towers (A170), you should have more than sufficient output capability to play loud above a crossover frequency of 80-100 Hz which includes the frequency range from 125-300 Hz. You shouldn't need bigger speakers with 8 to 12" woofers to do this. The issue with the recessed mid-bass/low-midrange is likely this particular speaker's frequency response not a small woofer vs large woofer issue. Erin's Audio Corner tested the A130, the smaller brother, and found the issues were not the depression of the lower midrange, but the boost in sound energy on both ends of this zone. If this is the case for the A170, Dirac will correct a lot of this issue. Another possible issue with small woofers is the woofer location relative to the floor. If your floor is reflective, this can result in a low-mid frequency null/depression. This null can't be well corrected by DSP (Dirac), so make sure your speakers have carpet in front of them to absorb the sound radiating toward the floor.

I suggest to read your speaker manual and locate your speakers and sub as best you can in reference to heights and distances from walls. Dirac and your AVR should also have recommendations for these speaker positions. Reset your receiver to make sure that all previous "calibration" runs are cleared and any tone controls etc are zeroed out. Then run DIrac with at least 9 measurement points being careful to locate the measurement points as needed by Dirac. A tripod or mic stand is helpful here. Dirac will measure the room response with speakers/sub correctly phased. It will also suggest a DSP corrected room curve. Unfortunately, if you are using the provided Pioneer phone app, I think Dirac's default target curve is "flat". This will sound thin. With the phone app, you have to adjust the Dirac target room curve to a sloped room response and it will recalculate for all speakers. If you use the Dirac app from the Dirac website, the sloped room target curve is the default. This online Dirac app also allows to use of more measurement points and a Umik-1 which should be more accurate than the Pioneer supplied mic.

I have the Pioneer LX505 and have a tough, "live" living room with a lot of unfixable acoustic issues. Dirac using the Umik-1 was a godsend.

 

[Digby]

Larger drivers aren't magically better at bass but they do tend to be quite a bit more efficient, you'd have to dump quite a bit more power into little towers to get that cubic inch displacement and you may start hitting other limits.

9 times out of 10 they are better and it's not magic, just physics.