Six Acoustics York Review (phono pre-amp)

[Bob from Florida]

I started another thread asking about this, but I'll also ask here (and then copy the answer to the other thread).

I'm quite confused about the headroom aspect of the phono stages.

What does the headroom tell us? How does it influence the transmission and emphasis of ticks/pops?

Earlier in this thread, someone had said to make sure that a phono amp can handle the peaks from a cartridge.

For example, if we look at the York, or the recently reviewed Gram Slee, both of them don't measure to have a lot of headroom, and they both have less headroom at higher frequencies, but they still seem way more than the 2.5 - 6mV on average that a MM cart puts out.

So again, how does headroom factor in here?

Apologies in advance if I am asking the wrong questions, or have missed a fundamental aspect.

The RIAA curve is flat at 1KHZ but is -20 db at 20 HZ and plus 20 db at 20KHZ. Your phono stage will correct for this but the first amplification stage - before correcting the frequency response to flat 20 HZ - 20 KHZ - has to have at least 20 db of headroom to not clip on frequencies approaching 20KHZ. Pops and clicks can have greater signal peaks than normal music. Extra headroom helps to keep us from clipping from the pops and clips. Recovery from clipping can have harmonics we can hear and be irritating. We get extra headroom from circuit design and higher voltage rails so clipping is avoided or minimized.

 

[BadAudioAdvice]

ticks and splats can peak at 50mV

Ok, so for example if ticks/plats etc are peaking at 50mV and a phono amp only has headroom up until 40mV, or even 30mV (e.g. the York at 15KHz / 20KHz), what is the impact? (I see from the charts that the THD+N rises)
But what does that mean in terms of the sound that we'll hear?
And why would it cause ticks/pops to be exaggerated, rather than just distorted? And since I can't imagine that something that would cause the stylus to be disturbed like that to sound good anyways, why does it matter if it is distorted?

Thank you and I appreciate the help to understand this

 

[EarlessOldMan]

Watch the 6dB or so HF peak on the 530EN, which I gather is similar to the 120E ancestor model I have here. It *can* breathe life into dull 60's orchestral recordings though and even into modern hot cuts of rock music, I don't find it an issue, BUT! the phono stage MUST be able to take the peak without overloading or ringing. The 540 doesn't have this peak and the 740 tested with same stylus, has a traditional recess in the response. You'll need to translate the pages for the text, but the response plots will tell you what you need to know

Test Audio-Technica VM740ML: die noble Art zu Hören - LowBeats

Innerhalb unser Familienübersicht ist das Audio-Technica VM740ML das größte und mit knapp 330 Euro t

www.lowbeats.de

Test: Audio-Technica VM540ML – der Preis/Leistungs-Tipp - LowBeats

Mit dem Audio-Technica VM540ML betritt das zweifelsfrei interessanteste Tonabnehmersystem der VM-Se

www.lowbeats.de

Test Audio-Technica VM530EN: feiner Abtaster für 200 Euro - LowBeats

Das Audio-Technica VM530EN ist das 200-Euro-Modell der VM-Serie (siehe auch Familienübersicht VM-Ser

www.lowbeats.de

P.S. You don't need a turntable confection like the FFYX T224 you know. A Rega 8 or 10 will do better (in the bass) (I bet a modern Technics would as well - SL100C anyone?) if carefully sited and the engineering is in all the right places, if not a posh finish! I'm a Notts Analogue fan but I don't think they make or export many! - A Spacedeck with Rega RB300 absolutely demiloshed a 'well set up' Scottish model we UK flat earthers worshipped at one time and the deck and arm cost less than the deck only of it's 'pedestalled' competitor...

As for what I need . . . Well, if I were just going to listen to music, I'd have someone smart set up a decent modern system for me, with a good DAC, a good modern amplifier, and good speakers.

If I want just to listen to vinyl, I don't need anything better than my Sansui SR-525 with the old SV-27 cartridge on it with a conical stylus. When I listen to it, it sounds superb to me.

And today I received a Realistic Elac Miracord 45 in superb condition. It's a beautiful table, and it sounds great.

So I seriously don't need anything better than that.

But, as King Lear said,

O, reason not the need: our basest beggars
Are in the poorest thing superfluous:
Allow not nature more than nature needs,
Man's life's as cheap as beast's . . . .

Lear was an old man who wanted his hundred knights. I'm no Lear--but I'm an old man, and when I was young, I wanted a good turntable, etc. I couldn't afford a good system. So now I'm buying either nostalgic stuff or funky stuff that looks cool to that younger version of me, who was taken with the appearance of things that he couldn't afford.

That's precisely why I'm buying the T224. I think it looks cool. And I'm sure that it will sound entirely fine to me.

 

[cgallery]

Watch the 6dB or so HF peak on the 530EN, which I gather is similar to the 120E ancestor model I have here. It *can* breathe life into dull 60's orchestral recordings though and even into modern hot cuts of rock music, I don't find it an issue, BUT! the phono stage MUST be able to take the peak without overloading or ringing. The 540 doesn't have this peak and the 740 tested with same stylus, has a traditional recess in the response. You'll need to translate the pages for the text, but the response plots will tell you what you need to know

Test Audio-Technica VM740ML: die noble Art zu Hören - LowBeats

Innerhalb unser Familienübersicht ist das Audio-Technica VM740ML das größte und mit knapp 330 Euro t

www.lowbeats.de

Test: Audio-Technica VM540ML – der Preis/Leistungs-Tipp - LowBeats

Mit dem Audio-Technica VM540ML betritt das zweifelsfrei interessanteste Tonabnehmersystem der VM-Se

www.lowbeats.de

Test Audio-Technica VM530EN: feiner Abtaster für 200 Euro - LowBeats

Das Audio-Technica VM530EN ist das 200-Euro-Modell der VM-Serie (siehe auch Familienübersicht VM-Ser

www.lowbeats.de

P.S. You don't need a turntable confection like the FFYX T224 you know. A Rega 8 or 10 will do better (in the bass) (I bet a modern Technics would as well - SL100C anyone?) if carefully sited and the engineering is in all the right places, if not a posh finish! I'm a Notts Analogue fan but I don't think they make or export many! - A Spacedeck with Rega RB300 absolutely demiloshed a 'well set up' Scottish model we UK flat earthers worshipped at one time and the deck and arm cost less than the deck only of it's 'pedestalled' competitor...

Huh, I was under the impression that the 740 and 540 generators were identical, save for the 7540's gold color and slightly heavier generator. I'm surprised the 740ML and 540ML would measure so differently.

My own measurements of a Signet AM10S body with a VMN40ML using the pink noise tracks on the HFN album are very similar to what they show for the 740.

 

[EarlessOldMan]

That's some investment in vinyl! I hope you find it worth it. It does seem odd to me that you would spend so little on the cartridge, though.

I can offer enlightenment as to why I'm spending my money the way that I'm spending it. I offer very reasonable fees for such services. I bill at $350 per hour. I anticipate that I could provide enlightenment to you in, say, four hours.

Please let me know whether you wish to retain my services in this regard.

 

[Angsty]

Previous thread on phono headroom:

Headroom in phono preamps

Hello I am new here. I am looking into buying a new phono preamp in the sub 200E category. I read a lot about all the important technical considerations and I am quite annoyed that companies specify their products with different metrics (I noticed that gain can be specified in at least three...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Ingenieur]

The limiting noise factor with a phono amp is the thermal noise of the cartridge.
Mine generates 0.6 uV. (AT VM5540ML).
At 2.83 at the speakers ~ 0.4 mV ~ 76.5 dB
That is a weighted average over the audio band.

mine at full gain ~12500x
Unused MM input ~1-1.5 mV
With cartridge ~8 mV

20 log (50.2/7,53) ~ 76.5 dB

 

[restorer-john]

By contrast, cable + input impedance is a hot topic in the world of MM cartridges, to the point where a phonopre is arguably best installed in the turntable itself and requires an input capacitance (+ ideally resistance) selection.

Plenty of preamps and integrated amps had selectable capacitance/resistance loading for MM and some would provide premade loading RCA plugs to use on special rear RCAs.

The captive phono cables provided on turntables were also considered in the loading.

It's ironic that people are using unsuitable ultra low capacitance poorly shielded RCA-RCA on some modern TTs and need to add capacitance...

 

[KSTR]

What does the headroom tell us? How does it influence the transmission and emphasis of ticks/pops?

I think if it were actually easy, Amir would have already done it. Coming up with standard, useful ways of measuring cartridge performance has been a bit of a challenge. I do reference Paul Miller’s measurements in Hifi News, but his test suite is not as ambitious as Amir’s is.

Your overestimating the enthusiasm of our host ;-)

There is two things of importance here:
- how much headroom do we have, is it large enough to deal with typical click/pop events?
- especially if not, then what happens when clipping occurs, is it at least clean and fast?

What we would really need is headroom vs frequency, which is maximum undistorted input vs nominal input (at 5cm/s or whatever reference speed). Easily measured, with full automation, with an AP (say for max 5% distortion).
Nominal input follows the RIAA curve whereas maximum input is restricted by clipping and depending on where exactly it clips the headroom is quite frequency-dependant as a result.

To deal with click/pops which can be easily 10x as large as the payload signal we usually want freedom from clipping, though decent soft clipping with very short recovery times is often preferered, audibly, as the most benign type of overload.
To test for this one must deterministically overdrive the input with proper emulations of clicks/pops and then we must inspected the output waveform and look for "rail-sticking" artifacts, oscillation/ringing in the recovery etc. Not a "click a button and get a result" type of measurement.

 

[TrevC]

I have a Denon high output MC (somethimg-something 160), sounds bad on MC, sounds bad on MM.

Replaced with a cheap 140€ AT95ML.
Sounds fine now.

They are brilliant cartridges. The ML is the pick of the range.

 

[don'ttrustauthority]

Why is thd+n now given in % and not dB?

Little bit of mains leakage and most noise at Lowe frequency where hearing sensitivity is low.
Maybe dB(A) noise rating would tell a better story for Phoneo preamps!

Distortion below -110dB sounds good to me but 400$ for this box don't

When I try to explain that statistics are not objective just because they are repeatable, the lack of A weighing is the primary example.

Amir does not use A weighing, which of course is more accurate if you are trying to see how distortion affects audio performance for human beings.

 

[Ingenieur]

The Goldring E3 is a great sounding cartridge and a real bargain.

Class B fwiw

Recommended Components 2021 Edition Phono Cartridges

Phono Cartridges A Air Tight PC-1 Coda: $9500

www.stereophile.com

Goldring E3: $169 $$$
Goldring's budget E series—"designed in the UK, made in Japan"—consists of three versions: the conical-tipped, carbon-cantilevered E1 ($100), the conical-tipped, aluminum-cantilevered E2 ($129), and the elliptical-tipped, aluminum-cantilevered E3 ($169). When HR auditioned the E3, he commented that "It brought out every note with a precision I never imagined a moving magnet could muster." He added that the E3 "played [music] with much of the realism and complexity it does with a Koetsu" and noted the cartridge's superb PRaT (Pace, Rhythm and Timing) (Vol.44 No.1 WWW)

 

[don'ttrustauthority]

I bought an iFi Zen Phono and loved it for a couple of months.

And then it simply died.
...
I wish that someone would come out with a decent moving-coil preamp with infinitely variable gain (i.e., a pot) that doesn't introduce significant noise. I bought a cheap Douk Audio phono preamp with a pot for gain, but it's quite noisy. It's all right for moving-magnet cartridges. But it's noisy with a moving-coil cartridge.

https://www.sound-smith.com/phono-preamps/soundsmith-mcp2-phono-preamp

$1200 by a guy who B&O licenses it's cartridges to! I have one (cartridge, not preamp) in a cheapo B&O I got off ebay (be careful, these ship poorly) but I just use a Mani preamp since it's MM.

 

[Ingenieur]

As far as weighting and units for SN.
It does not matter as long as comparing apples to apples. I prefer raw, dB or % doesn't matter, typically equivilent.

db = 20 log (%/100)
eg 0.1% = -60 dB at that f and level

Headroom MM 55 mA
If using a 4 mV cartridge ~ 23 dB
As long as output is coordinated with this and preamp sensitivity it may not be an issue.

MC 6 mV
If cartridge is 0.3 mV, 26 dB

 

[Ingenieur]

This is a good paper on the range of cartridges, seldom exceeds 12 dB, nominal to peak. (Power, V would be 2x)

https://www.analogplanet.com/images/vinyl-dynamic-range.pdf

 

[Angsty]

What we would really need is headroom vs frequency, which is maximum undistorted input vs nominal input (at 5cm/s or whatever reference speed).

Why would you want to model a click or pop as a sweep versus as an impulse? Aren’t we interested in how the phono recovers after an impulse event? I have to admit it’s been decades since I took electronics and performed Fourier analysis, so I’m more than a little rusty.

 

[Ingenieur]

Amir did show overload vs frequency
It drops above 10 kHz, but there is very little content or power (V) in the region so may not be an issue.
For a 4 mV cartridge OL is 30 mV or 17.5 dB.

 

[EarlessOldMan]

https://www.sound-smith.com/phono-preamps/soundsmith-mcp2-phono-preamp

$1200 by a guy who B&O licenses it's cartridges to! I have one (cartridge, not preamp) in a cheapo B&O I got off ebay (be careful, these ship poorly) but I just use a Mani preamp since it's MM.

I'll wait for Amir to do a review of that preamp. And I don't know that I'd be interested anyway. It offers variable loading, not variable gain. The Parasound Zphono XRM offers that feature at $500. The Zphono XRM also offers two levels of gain for both the moving coil and moving magnet inputs.

I'm also not impressed by the appearance of the Soundsmith phono stage. The Zphono XRM is a pretty substantial piece of gear. The Soundsmith device looks almost homemade--and not in a good way.

The Zphono XRM is also a MM preamp--and you can plug in two turntables and switch easily between them. The Cambridge Audio Duo doesn't offer variable loading, but it does allow the user to plug in two turntables and switch between them.

So for $700 less, I can get the Zphono XRM. I ain't switchin' to the Soundsmith preamp, at least not for now . . .

Model > Parasound Z > Zphono XRM « Parasound

 

[Sal1950]

Why is there still MC? The noise is about 20 dB higher than MM. Does MC have advantages over MM?

It depends on who you ask.
MC's have always been the darlings of the high end review media, a good part of the reason IMO was the high end price tag attached to most of them. Back in the day I went thru a LOT of needles mainly looking for better sound and let myself get pulled into what I came to believe was mostly snake-oil marketing. In the 1970s - 1990s I had MCs like the Dynavector with a ruby cantilever, Supex 900 Super, more. I also had a number of the Stanton MMs from their top tier back then, the 681EEE and 881S.
I'll make a long story short and say only I was never able to hear any sonic miracles from the MCs that proved their worth when it came to cost. They all had tiny differences in sound relating to FR but the MM advantages in tracking with low stylis pressure combined with the abliity to plug in new-different stylus made them the end choice for me. I had a lot of vintage 78's back then and being able to just plug in the correct stylus and dial in the tracking force was a big plus..
With hindsight I find the MM vs MC discussions much like the rest of the objective vs subjective arguments today.
In most every measurement-performance objective the MM is the superior design. Able to track at low pressures in a lightweight tonearm, The compliance numbers will reveal how superior that arrangement can be in tracking warped and out of round records.
I haven't spun any vinyl in 25 years now and don't miss all the tweakyness one bit
YMMV

 

[EarlessOldMan]

It depends on who you ask.
MC's have always been the darlings of the high end review media, a good part of the reason IMO was the high end price tag attached to most of them. Back in the day I went thru a LOT of needles mainly looking for better sound and let myself get pulled into what I came to believe was mostly snake-oil marketing. In the 1970s - 1990s I had MCs like the Dynavector with a ruby cantilever, Supex 900 Super, more. I also had a number of the Stanton MMs from their top tier back then, the 681EEE and 881S.
I'll make a long story short and say only I was never able to hear any sonic miracles from the MCs that proved their worth when it came to cost. They all had tiny differences in sound relating to FR but the MM advantages in tracking with low stylis pressure combined with the abliity to plug in new-different stylus made them the end choice for me. I had a lot of vintage 78's back then and being able to just plug in the correct stylus and dial in the tracking force was a big plus..
With hindsight I find the MM vs MC discussions much like the rest of the objective vs subjective arguments today.
In most every measurement-performance objective the MM is the superior design. Able to track at low pressures in a lightweight tonearm, The compliance numbers will reveal how superior that arrangement can be in tracking warped and out of round records.
I haven't spun any vinyl in 25 years now and don't miss all the tweakyness one bit
YMMV

I can convince myself that my one MC cartridge sounds better than any of my MM cartridges.

But I can also convince myself that I'm handsome and debonair.