Six Acoustics York Review (phono pre-amp)

[BadAudioAdvice]

@amirm If the 60hz spikes weren't present, how much would that improve the score? (would replacing the power supply with one that could output cleaner 18V DC make sense?)

 

[EarlessOldMan]

I believe the Zen has a one year warranty. Hopefully, you can get it replaced. I also hope for my benefit, yours failing was a one-off and mine will keep on working.

Yes, I could've replaced the Zen. But I was unhappy with the early failure, so I decided not to exchange the unit for another. Instead, I exchanged it for the Parasound Zphono--which I then exchanged for the Zphono XRM.

The Zphono XRM is a substantial unit, and I like its overall feel, features, and sound. But it is (to my ears) a bit noisier than the Cambridge Audio Duo with a moving-coil cartridge--at least in the setup where I was using it.

Let me add that I loved the looks of the Zen Phono. It's an attractive unit, and I loved the sound.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Yes, I could've replaced the Zen. But I was unhappy with the early failure, so I decided not to exchange the unit for another. Instead, I exchanged it for the Parasound Zphono--which I then exchanged for the Zphono XRM.

The Zphono XRM is a substantial unit, and I like its overall feel, features, and sound. But it is (to my ears) a bit noisier than the Cambridge Audio Duo with a moving-coil cartridge--at least in the setup where I was using it.

Let me add that I loved the looks of the Zen Phono. It's an attractive unit, and I loved the sound.

Ahh, now I understand. If the Zen proves reliable it will be a super bargain. I think they hit the correct balance of features versus cost and the low noise is a bonus.

 

[EarlessOldMan]

Precisely. If I could feel confident that this one failure was simply my bad luck, I'd be happy to buy another. Without that confidence, I'd rather spend more on the Cambridge Audio Duo.

Note that the Duo has an advantage over the Zen in that you can connect two turntables to the Duo at the same time, provided that one uses a moving-coil cartridge and the other uses a moving-magnet cartridge.

Right now, I'm listening to some vintage vinyl through an old Garrard Synchro-Lab 75, equipped with an Empire 990 C/X cartridge. (I bought the Garrard for $40 yesterday.) The Garrard is running into the Duo, as is a modern turntable with an Audio-Technica MC cartridge. (Of course, only one is running at a time . . .)

 

[KSTR]

@amirm If the 60hz spikes weren't present, how much would that improve the score? (would replacing the power supply with one that could output cleaner 18V DC make sense?)

Phono preamps have a lot of gain at low frequencies which makes them very prone to "pick up" hum/buzz with a whole bunch of different mechanism.
Using precision clean 18V supply, notably one with low mains leakage current thus may or may not improve things here. Only experiment would show (with inputs shorted and not connected to anything else).

From the present measurements, it appears the 60Hz spike is not dominating the THD+N but still affects it, so only several dB of improvement could be possible if all mains hum components were basically absent (below FFT noise floor). No big deal. Analog circuit noise dominates -- IHMO, as long as LP surface noise dominates anyway in practice I wouldn't care much about noise of a phono stage.

 

[H-713]

Nice to see more phono stage reviews. It still seems to be an area where performance varies quite widely.

Performance in phono stages varies quite widely because it's a relatively difficult piece of equipment to design. There needs to be a lot of gain, and the noise floor needs to to be really, really low.

You can't just buy an OPA1656 for this, because as @AnalogSteph pointed out, the equivalent input noise really needs to be <0.5 nV/sqrt(Hz), and there aren't a whole lot of chips on the market that can achieve that.

It's the same reason that microphone preamplifiers can be quite difficult, only it's even worse with MC phono stages.


In general (though it's not always the case), the harder it is to design a piece of equipment, the fewer you'll see that perform really well. Note that there are precious few linear power amplifiers measured on ASR with THD+N < 0.001% - there's because it's a difficult engineering problem. In contrast, building a headphone amp with THD+N <0.0005% isn't all that tricky anymore (TI basically solved that problem), so there are a lot of them. Phono stages for MC cartridges are another one that takes a pretty good understanding of analog electronics to design well.

 

[TheBatsEar]

Why is there still MC? The noise is about 20 dB higher than MM. Does MC have advantages over MM?

I have a Denon high output MC (somethimg-something 160), sounds bad on MC, sounds bad on MM.

Replaced with a cheap 140€ AT95ML.
Sounds fine now.

 

[AudioSceptic]

No. If you toggle the switch to MC, the gain jumps to 61 db. I lowered it to 60.

Thanks, that wasn't obvious (to me anyway). 60 is pretty much the standard for MC, although some preamps offer a 63 dB option as well for those who need that extra boost.

 

[EarlessOldMan]

Why is there still MC? The noise is about 20 dB higher than MM. Does MC have advantages over MM?

I was led to believe that MC would provide greater detail than MM.

I'm not sure that's at all true. I've decided not to buy another MC cartridge. An FFYX T224 will be delivered to me next week. I'm thinking of installing an Audio-Technica AT-VM530EN on it.

 

[DrZingo]

But is the timing brilliant?

 

[AudioSceptic]

I was led to believe that MC would provide greater detail than MM.

I'm not sure that's at all true. I've decided not to buy another MC cartridge. An FFYX T224 will be delivered to me next week. I'm thinking of installing an Audio-Technica AT-VM530EN on it.

That's some investment in vinyl! I hope you find it worth it. It does seem odd to me that you would spend so little on the cartridge, though.

 

[DSJR]

I was led to believe that MC would provide greater detail than MM.

I'm not sure that's at all true. I've decided not to buy another MC cartridge. An FFYX T224 will be delivered to me next week. I'm thinking of installing an Audio-Technica AT-VM530EN on it.

Watch the 6dB or so HF peak on the 530EN, which I gather is similar to the 120E ancestor model I have here. It *can* breathe life into dull 60's orchestral recordings though and even into modern hot cuts of rock music, I don't find it an issue, BUT! the phono stage MUST be able to take the peak without overloading or ringing. The 540 doesn't have this peak and the 740 tested with same stylus, has a traditional recess in the response. You'll need to translate the pages for the text, but the response plots will tell you what you need to know

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P.S. You don't need a turntable confection like the FFYX T224 you know. A Rega 8 or 10 will do better (in the bass) (I bet a modern Technics would as well - SL100C anyone?) if carefully sited and the engineering is in all the right places, if not a posh finish! I'm a Notts Analogue fan but I don't think they make or export many! - A Spacedeck with Rega RB300 absolutely demiloshed a 'well set up' Scottish model we UK flat earthers worshipped at one time and the deck and arm cost less than the deck only of it's 'pedestalled' competitor...

 

[BadAudioAdvice]

the phono stage MUST be able to take the peak without overloading or ringing.

Is there a test that can measure the ability of a phono stage to handle this? It would be great is possible to add it to the suite of tests.

 

[Angsty]

Why is there still MC? The noise is about 20 dB higher than MM. Does MC have advantages over MM?

It depends on your system if there is added noise or not. A step-up transformer (SUT) can add 20 dB or more of gain with very little noise penalty. I have a Bryston phono with built-in SUTs for MC use.

Many people do prefer the sound of MC cartridges, but all MCs are not better than all MMs. I use a Hana SL which I much prefer to my Ortofon 2M Blue, but it costs greater than three times more at retail.

 

[Bob from Florida]

I was led to believe that MC would provide greater detail than MM.

I'm not sure that's at all true. I've decided not to buy another MC cartridge. An FFYX T224 will be delivered to me next week. I'm thinking of installing an Audio-Technica AT-VM530EN on it.

In my experience, the greater “detail” thing can be using too high a load on the cartridge. The cartridge design - flat or up tilted response - factors in always. I have had a few MC’s and am currently using a Hana SL with great success.
MC’s I have tried.
Benz Ace high output into MM phono. Never could get the channels to balance. Traded it in for the Miyabi.
Miyabi MCA - through Ortofon 28 db step up into MM phono. Good overall tonal balance - bass maybe a bit soft.
Lyra Parnassus - used same 28 db step up. Has good bass under proper loading with a lot of detail. When it got to be too much I would put the Miyabi on for a while. I had 2 headshells and just had to reset VTF.
Denon 103 with the ”Denon Cap”. Excellent bass! Good midrange with okay detail. Bargain cartridge!
Hana EL - 60 db gain 500 ohm load. Plays everything well. Great bass, midrange, and treble.
Hana SL - 60 db gain started with 500 ohm load and later tried 1000 ohms as final load. Does everything the EL does with more low level details without becoming irritating. Can listen all day without fatigue. Current cartridge of choice.
I have had cheap and expensive with some stuff in between. The Hana SL at $750 list is the most satisfying cartridge ever - for me.

 

[Angsty]

In my experience, the greater “detail” thing can be using too high a load on the cartridge. The cartridge design - flat or up tilted response - factors in always. I have had a few MC’s and am currently using a Hana SL with great success.
MC’s I have tried.
Benz Ace high output into MM phono. Never could get the channels to balance. Traded it in for the Miyabi.
Miyabi MCA - through Ortofon 28 db step up into MM phono. Good overall tonal balance - bass maybe a bit soft.
Lyra Parnassus - used same 28 db step up. Has good bass under proper loading with a lot of detail. When it got to be too much I would put the Miyabi on for a while. I had 2 headshells and just had to reset VTF.
Denon 103 with the ”Denon Cap”. Excellent bass! Good midrange with okay detail. Bargain cartridge!
Hana EL - 60 db gain 500 ohm load. Plays everything well. Great bass, midrange, and treble.
Hana SL - 60 db gain started with 500 ohm load and later tried 1000 ohms as final load. Does everything the EL does with more low level details without becoming irritating. Can listen all day without fatigue. Current cartridge of choice.
I have had cheap and expensive with some stuff in between. The Hana SL at $750 list is the most satisfying cartridge ever - for me.

I agree about the Hana SL. I’m currently using it with a Sutherland Insight instead of the Bryston, loaded at 1000 ohms. With either phono, it’s an extremely satisfying cartridge. I don’t plan to go back to a MM on that table after using the Hana.

 

[AudioSceptic]

Is there a test that can measure the ability of a phono stage to handle this? It would be great is possible to add it to the suite of tests.

I agree. At the moment we have headroom, with estimates of its impact, but it shouldn't be hard to come up with a few spikes at set voltages to actually measure the impact, should it?

 

[Angsty]

I agree. At the moment we have headroom, with estimates of its impact, but it shouldn't be hard to come up with a few spikes at set voltages to actually measure the impact, should it?

I think if it were actually easy, Amir would have already done it. Coming up with standard, useful ways of measuring cartridge performance has been a bit of a challenge. I do reference Paul Miller’s measurements in Hifi News, but his test suite is not as ambitious as Amir’s is.

 

[BadAudioAdvice]

At the moment we have headroom, with estimates of its impact

I started another thread asking about this, but I'll also ask here (and then copy the answer to the other thread).

I'm quite confused about the headroom aspect of the phono stages.

What does the headroom tell us? How does it influence the transmission and emphasis of ticks/pops?

Earlier in this thread, someone had said to make sure that a phono amp can handle the peaks from a cartridge.

Watch the 6dB or so HF peak on the 530EN

For example, if we look at the York, or the recently reviewed Gram Slee, both of them don't measure to have a lot of headroom, and they both have less headroom at higher frequencies, but they still seem way more than the 2.5 - 6mV on average that a MM cart puts out.

So again, how does headroom factor in here?

Apologies in advance if I am asking the wrong questions, or have missed a fundamental aspect.

 

[DSJR]

I believe that ticks and splats can peak at 50mV or more with an 'MM' type cartridge with usual '5mV' levels (@ 5cm/s). I need objective confirmation to say this with absolute authority, but I was in this game a very long time and spoke to many industry people about it and that's how my mind feels about it currently....

[edit] - Serious higher end vinyl can appear to minimise vinyl surface noise and so on. I appreciate one can never eliminate it obviously, but it's amazing how a decent diamond (shape, grind and polish) coupled with a non peaky pickup and phono stage with ample headroom and a tendency to soft clip rather than ring if overloaded all adds together to minimise the subjective effects and annoyance of surface noise.