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Single speaker listening comparison question.

steve59

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How valid can revel's single speaker test be for serious 2 channel listening? When I bought my salon 2's they were in a well treated dealers home living room. I was floored by the presentation and we struck a deal right there, A month or so later he invited me over to hear his new f228be's. I'd been calling him for advise to the placement/power problems I'd been having in getting bass from the salon's, bear with me. I went over to listen to the 228's in exactly the same spot with same ML components as previously and while the system sounded good my attention was drawn back to the speakers. After spending time with the salon 2's and learning to appreciate their level of imaging in space despite not having a soundstage the salons really placed images in space making the speakers disappear, The 228's kept pulling my attention back to the speakers, they couldn't hold an image in space like the salon's can.

Without disregarding HK's or Dr Toole's work in finding listeners preferences it was never intended to test for quality of stereo imaging and I would love to hear that simple fact acknowledged.
 

Jdunk54nl

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Very valid. If you listen to Toole's talk or read his book, they both state that they tried 2 speaker and mono listening tests. The listeners were much better and reliable when listening to only one speaker. The more speakers playing, the less likely flaws in the speaker are to be heard. They even went into multi channel stuff and preferences for that based on subjective listening scores.


The issue that you stated above sounds like a poor integration issue. Some may be fixed depending on the cause. But the likelihood that two different speakers can be placed in the EXACT same way in a room and give the exact same results would surprise everyone I would think. Different speakers need different things to integrate them.
 
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steve59

steve59

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I'm aware, but that was because it just streamlined the listeners tone preferences. I started watching Dr Toole's videos when I became a Revel fanboy.
 

Jdunk54nl

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I'm aware, but that was because it just streamlined the listeners tone preferences. I started watching Dr Toole's videos when I became a Revel fanboy.
Have you read any of his book or research articles on the how they did research and why as well as the detailed outcomes (Especially in the topic specific published articles that lent their hand to the book's information)? Might be good for you to start there.

Also, have you measured your room? DId you measure the person's room you listened to with the salon's in place there? When they had the f228's in there, did you measure it then? I would bet there would be some obvious differences in the two. If you measure your room, I'd bet you have some nasty cancellations at your current placement with your salons.
 
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steve59

steve59

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I don't think I have the tools to measure image specificity other than my ears. the knuckle rap test?
 

Jdunk54nl

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A Room measurement using REW and a measurement microphone would be a great start. Otherwise everyone would just be guessing (some may be more educated than others) on how to fix any issue and what the differences could be.

There isn't a great high resolution spin of the Salon's (Yet... @amirm....) but the f228's there are, and there some measured differences between those two so they will need to be integrated into the room differently.
 
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steve59

steve59

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Regarding the salon 2's I don't doubt that had I kept the speakers and sorted the bass problems they would soundstage as well as they imaged. The heroic cabinet build that adds so much to the cost of the speakers is for a reason and I really think it shows up in the soundstage and imaging. I want a measurement that proves it. JA writes in stereophile this or that 'suggest excellent imaging' but he never says 'This measurement means these speakers image and soundstage better/best". Matching pairs to each other helps, the absence of cabinet vibration helps, etc. What specific test shows image specificity quality between 2 different speakers? If REW does that I wish they used it for us 2 channel fiends.
 

Jdunk54nl

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To get multiple speakers to image the best, I have found having VERY similar measurements (NOT just frequency response) in the room they are going to be used to be the same results in this. This can be done with passive items (speaker placement, room treatment, etc) or active dsp items and / or a combination of both.

For active dsp stuff, I would suggest DIRAC if you don't want to learn how to EQ yourself. Even then, dirac is hard to beat for most unless you get into better software and measurement devices that can easily measure and correct phase issues.
 
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steve59

steve59

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Right on.
 

Jdunk54nl

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Having a nice set of speakers helps above the Schroeder / transition frequency (somewhere between like 100 hz and 400 hz) but below that, you need to correct this some way or the speaker will draw attention to itself.
 
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