Single full range drivers

[thewas]

flat FR fetish has to stop lol
we are all using EQ

But keep in mind that EQ cannot usually fix problems like driver cone break up modes and corresponding directivity changes (and of course also non-linear distortions) so you can't just slap any driver to a baffle, EQ it and think it will become great.

 

[stevenswall]

I'd be curious for Amir to measure a Manger driver. Maybe nearfield it could do it's "ripple like a lake" trick for treble and "move like a piston" movement for bass at reasonable levels.

Other than that curiosity, or allowing a coaxial driver, plus not expecting too much bass, full range drivers are a misnomer.

 

[thewas]

I'd be curious for Amir to measure a Manger driver. Maybe nearfield it could do it's "ripple like a lake" trick for treble and "move like a piston" movement for bass at reasonable levels.

Manger driver measurements unfortunately show its directivity problems, for example

(source: https://www.stereophile.com/content/manger-p1-loudspeaker-measurements )

but many people like its sound.

 

[Ata]

Anyone ever heard these? I kinda like the looks, but am, let's say, EXTREMELY skeptical about the sound and the claimed measurements:

"The Concerto": Highly Effecient Horn Loudspeaker

Charney Audio: "The Concerto": Highly Effecient Horn Loudspeaker

charneyaudio.com

Oh, my, these sell for a good coin, 25 grand!

The Lii Audio 15" full range drivers I mentioned yesterday go into open baffle speakers costing a fraction of that: https://www.decware.com/newsite/ZMS2.html. They were recently reviewed by Andrew Robinson on YT, that is how I have come across them.

 

[AlexanderM]

Oh, my, these sell for a good coin, 25 grand!

The Lii Audio 15" full range drivers I mentioned yesterday go into open baffle speakers costing a fraction of that: https://www.decware.com/newsite/ZMS2.html. They were recently reviewed by Andrew Robinson on YT, that is how I have come across them.

So even these speakers are thousands of dollars compared to the cost of a pair of the 15" drivers.

One Pair | Recommended 15" Full Range Speaker Driver | Fast High and Scaled Sound | F-15 - Lii Song (Lii Audio), unique speaker, amplfier, quality and cost-saving parts for HiFi DIY

Currently, this model is under production and we will send new orders since late December 2023. For expressing our gratitude for your kind patience, all pre-order will have a pair of metal trim rings offered as gift, you can select titanium black or brass color. Technical Data: 1. PMSE-Free...

www.lii-audio.com

 

[Ata]

Yes, I guess the target market can bear that cost.

I'd say similar results can be obtained with low-cost MDF baffle and spray paint for a DIY project.

 

[Ata]

That is something that Mark Audio attempts to do as well. They don't use whizzer cones, but employ diaphragm geometry and thickness to get the beaming issue under control.
Mark has a different view of cone break-up, though. One I tend to share.
In the single driver builds I've done I never measured abrupt phase reversing or high Q FR peaks. It's more a gradual, distributed shift from pistonic behavior to vibrating surface, in my own experience and measurements.
Not saying it's like that with all possible drivers, though. Just the few I worked with.

That is probably how the driver is designed, as there are three distinct radiating surfaces: the metal cone in the middle, the whizzer cone, and the main (paper cone?) diaphragm that is ribbed strategically.

 

[Deleted member 16543]

Drivers are the least expensive thing in a speaker, usually.
What costs a lot to make (and design, and test) is a cabinet that makes the driver behave in the way it was intended.

 

[Deleted member 16543]

That is probably how the driver is designed, as there are three distinct radiating surfaces: the metal cone in the middle, the whizzer cone, and the main (paper cone?) diaphragm that is ribbed strategically.
View attachment 164457

The metal thingy in the middle is a phase plug. It doesn't move.
It serves the purpose of making directivity more smooth at higher frequencies. At least that's its theoretical use.

 

[dasdoing]

But keep in mind that EQ cannot usually fix problems like driver cone break up modes and corresponding directivity changes (and of course also non-linear distortions) so you can't just slap any driver to a baffle, EQ it and think it will become great.

sure, but acting like EQ can't fix anything is wrong, too...if there is a rise in HFs that is the easiest "trick" for an EQ.

also narrow directivity is not bad for everybody. some don't like wall reflections, some (like me) even have treated walls. though I must say I never heard a speaker that becomes so beamy personaly. The balance might be off even in a treated room, don't know

 

[thewas]

sure, but acting like EQ can't fix anything is wrong, too...if there is a rise in HFs that is the easiest "trick" for an EQ.

Yes, I am a fan of EQ but as said it can't for everything but for a simple rise which is no resonance then its great.

also narrow directivity is not bad for everybody. some don't like wall reflections, some (like me) even have treated walls. though I must say I never heard a speaker that becomes so beamy personaly. The balance might be off even in a treated room, don't know

I also tend to prefer narrow directivity myself, but the problem of most full range drivers is that they narrow it abruptly just on the upper octaves and this results in a non balanced sound power which is quite audible.

 

[ctrl]

@sarumbear I always assumed the tilt @tuga is talking about because these drivers are never measured in a truly infinite baffle since such thing doesn't exist and forward waves leak to the back causing cancellations that we see as reduced output in the bass.

could be complete bullocks as well.

Normally this is not the case.
An IEC baffle is usually used, the size of which depends on the size of the driver to be measured. Or simply the floor or wall of the measuring room as an "infinite baffle".

To prevent your described phenomenon, many additionally use a large closed, damped volume (sometimes up to 1000L) that separates the back of the driver from the front and whose volume is so large that the behavior of the driver is hardly affected.

The second possibility is to measure with the IEC baffle only down to the frequencies at which the baffle still fulfills half-space conditions and to perform a near-field measurement of the driver for the lower frequencies and then to combine both measurements.

 

[AlexanderM]

Yes, I guess the target market can bear that cost.

I'd say similar results can be obtained with low-cost MDF baffle and spray paint for a DIY project.

This is what I was thinking.

 

[carewser]

The only way a single full range driver would work would be if the listener had very limited hearing, something like 100hz-2000hz or 300hz-8000hz which of course wouldn't appeal to many people as most people's hearing is much better than that. Both my Logitech Z-2300 and Z623 speakers come as close as i've ever seen to a single driver unit (although they both come with subwoofers) with their 2 1/2" Tang Band phase plug drivers that have rubber surrounds but I doubt either go below about 150hz although i've seen hobbyists use these drivers in single speaker units but they would have to be in a pretty amazing cabinet to get any bass out of them

 

[sarumbear]

The only way a single full range driver would work would be if the listener had very limited hearing, something like 100hz-2000hz or 300hz-8000hz which of course wouldn't appeal to many people as most people's hearing is much better than that. Both my Logitech Z-2300 and Z623 speakers come as close as i've ever seen to a single driver unit (although they both come with subwoofers) with their 2 1/2" Tang Band phase plug drivers that have rubber surrounds but I doubt either go below about 150hz although i've seen hobbyists use these drivers in single speaker units but they would have to be in a pretty amazing cabinet to get any bass out of them

You are wrong. Read the earlier posts and see the charts that refute your comments.

 

[Ata]

This is what I was thinking.

The manufacturer is actually very DIY friendly, they would sell you their plans for $30 if you wanted to save some time to design yourself...

 

[Deleted member 16543]

The manufacturer is actually very DIY friendly, they would sell you their plans for $30 if you wanted to save some time to design yourself...

$30 is a very cheap cure for the "I could easily do that myself" armchair disease that society seems to be afflicted by.

 

[AlexanderM]

The manufacturer is actually very DIY friendly, they would sell you their plans for $30 if you wanted to save some time to design yourself...

I doubt I will, but if I were that would be an excellent option, was also thinking there might be a speaker design program somewhere I could use, but buying the designs for $30 would work. Also, if I was going to do this I would add a tweeter, which I understand is often done. Thanks!

 

[carewser]

You are wrong. Read the earlier posts and see the charts that refute your comments.

You're obviously much more familiar with the thread than I am so could you point out the post(s) because I don't have hours to go through 170 posts

 

[enio nery]

i have had a lot of Full range speakers in the past and i still own 2 pairs. the JBL LE8Ts are probably the best ive listened to. they can surprising handle modern music. they cant go really high. but listening on axis and near field fixes that. if there i a full range speakers that i would like to see measured are the Ultra exotic Field Coil Drivers from Atelier Rullit in France and the Davis Acoustic ones also from France.