SINAD of Denon X4700 not in pure direct mode

[tjcinnamon]

I’m curious of what the SINAD of the Denon X4700 is when not in Pure Direct mode. I typically run things with Audyssey or at lease a cross over.

Any ideas?

 

[tjcinnamon]

I read through Amir’s explanation on SINAD and it said to focus on the color of the graph and not the number. The AVR is in the middle of orange and I’m wondering if non-pure-direct will put it in the red.

If so, I could run processing through my PC and then a digital transport to pure direct and get the 97dB pure direct SINAD.

 

[delta76]

Pure direct mode = only dac + amp, without EQ or room correction. as amp is only ~85dB IIRC you can't get better than that, unless you use pre-out
also, Amir reviewed x4700h with AKM dac which has high performance than TI dac of later revisions

 

[HooStat]

You should also ask yourself if any of that is audible. Go to https://www.klippel.de/listeningtest/ and see what kind of distortion you can actually hear. You might be surprised.

 

[tjcinnamon]

Pure direct mode = only dac + amp, without EQ or room correction. as amp is only ~85dB IIRC you can't get better than that, unless you use pre-out
also, Amir reviewed x4700h with AKM dac which has high performance than TI dac of later revisions

I bypass the amp and run full pre-amp mode. I wonder what pre-amp mode with correction is.

Unfortunately, I think I have a later model.

 

[tjcinnamon]

You should also ask yourself if any of that is audible. Go to https://www.klippel.de/listeningtest/ and see what kind of distortion you can actually hear. You might be surprised.

That makes total sense. I’m still curious of the impact of room correction on SINAD.

It’s difficult to do A/B tests with real content because there’s a time gap in silence and an SPL gap. That’s kind of answers my own question but… for science.

 

[Vincentponcet]

That makes total sense. I’m still curious of the impact of room correction on SINAD.

It’s difficult to do A/B tests with real content because there’s a time gap in silence and an SPL gap. That’s kind of answers my own question but… for science.

The output level doesn't change when switching from room correction on and off, so the overhead for room correction is always there, so about 10db. So sinad should be the same wether room correction is on or off.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

The output level doesn't change when switching from room correction on and off, so the overhead for room correction is always there, so about 10db. So sinad should be the same wether room correction is on or off.

Could be but also could not be... only measurements could tell ... see here (yes not Denon, but until it was measured, no one had suspected the decrease in SINAD, despite still in a non-audible range pretty much).

DSP Measurements and Rising Noise Floor

In several threads related to DSP platforms I've seen requests for measurements with filters engaged. I thought it unlikely that implementing filters in a DSP would have measurable effect on noise / distortion other than the obvious change in the fundamental, however @Sokel recently mentioned...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[tjcinnamon]

Pure direct mode = only dac + amp, without EQ or room correction. as amp is only ~85dB IIRC you can't get better than that, unless you use pre-out
also, Amir reviewed x4700h with AKM dac which has high performance than TI dac of later revisions

Is the difference in performance measured? I’m not refuting the difference; I’m just curious how much

 

[delta76]

Is the difference in performance measured? I’m not refuting the difference; I’m just curious how much

no, Amir never tested the updated version. But if we can assume it would be the same as the x3800h, then it's 10 dB loss in SINAD due to worse DAC/DAC implementation

 

[tjcinnamon]

no, Amir never tested the updated version. But if we can assume it would be the same as the x3800h, then it's 10 dB loss in SINAD due to worse DAC/DAC implementation

That’s my fear

 

[tjcinnamon]

Could be but also could not be... only measurements could tell ... see here (yes not Denon, but until it was measured, no one had suspected the decrease in SINAD, despite still in a non-audible range pretty much).

DSP Measurements and Rising Noise Floor

In several threads related to DSP platforms I've seen requests for measurements with filters engaged. I thought it unlikely that implementing filters in a DSP would have measurable effect on noise / distortion other than the obvious change in the fundamental, however @Sokel recently mentioned...

audiosciencereview.com

Looks like this is primarily in the low spectrum which makes a lot of sense that the FIR filters on the low end require a ton of performance.

I use a minidsp (2x4 HD) on my subs but there’s not many other options.

I did look at building a Camilla DSP RPi box but it looks difficult.

 

[tjcinnamon]

given it’s the digital domain, would it logically make sense that pre-out mode + correction + DAC is better than pure direct which is amp + DAC?

 

[HarmonicTHD]

given it’s the digital domain, would it logically make sense that pre-out mode + correction + DAC is better than pure direct which is amp + DAC?

Neither make sense. Why is there another DAC either after correction or amp?

The signal path goes like Streamer - Correction (Audyssey ) - DAC and then either Pre Out - External Amp or to the Internal AMPs.

Room Correction is always recommended.

 

[tjcinnamon]

Neither make sense. Why is there another DAC either after correction or amp?

The signal path goes like Streamer - Correction (Audyssey ) - DAC and then either Pre Out - External Amp or to the Internal AMPs.

Room Correction is always recommended.

Totally agree. My plan would be to have EQ happen on my HTPC -> external DAC -> AVR pure direct -> external Amp (just added the amp for clarity)

Room correction is a must. So I get room
Correction and a cleaner signal

It’s just is the added complexity worth it…. Regardless, I’m interested in the measurements which could help inform a decision

 

[Vincentponcet]

Totally agree. My plan would be to have EQ happen on my HTPC -> external DAC -> AVR pure direct

Room correction is a must. So I get room
Correction and a cleaner signal

It’s just is the added complexity worth it…. Regardless, I’m interested in the measurements which could help inform a decision

Why buying an AVR if it is to use it just as an amp ?
Higher end dac feeding an average amp will not bring benefits.

Your project would only make sense if it is to use a high end amp, like purifi, abh2, hyper or that kind of league.

and using an htpc means you would not be able to do Atmos, and you will not get Dolby vision too. There are hacks around this, but this is complex path.
And you will be able to read only RIPs, as official bd-uhd are not supported anymore on new CPUs, because Intel removed SGX instructions.
HTC is practically usable only with up to hdr10, 7.1 rips, and forget streaming too, most of the apps on windows do not support more than stereo output.

 

[tjcinnamon]

Why buying an AVR if it is to use it just as an amp ?
Higher end dac feeding an average amp will not bring benefits.

Your project would only make sense if it is to use a high end amp, like purifi, abh2, hyper or that kind of league.

and using an htpc means you would not be able to do Atmos, and you will not get Dolby vision too. There are hacks around this, but this is complex path.
And you will be able to read only RIPs, as official bd-uhd are not supported anymore on new CPUs, because Intel removed SGX instructions.
HTC is practically usable only with up to hdr10, 7.1 rips, and forget streaming too, most of the apps on windows do not support more than stereo output.

It’s actually the opposite, I’m running the AVR in preamp mode. I’m using the AVR as a processor and splitter (my next AVR will likely be a prepro). I’m feeding an Anthem MCA 325 MK2 amp. I need a class AB amp for my speakers (they have something called Stereo Dimensional Array which requires a single ended output architecture, not too be confused with RCA outs).

Movies I use an AppleTV and I’m not concerned with squeezing all the audio quality for movies (pre HDR used Kodi for bitstreaming). HTPC I use for gaming and could use for music like HQPlayer or some DSP but would have to figure out WASAPI with the DSP…

I’m still figuring out the music piece and an external DAC could be an option off the HTPC. I’d just need to have room correction with it….

That is what’s prompting my line of questioning. Overall I love to tinker so if there’s some gains, it’s not wasted money IMO.

Edit: I see where I caused confusion. I didn’t add the -> Amp in the chain. My apologies and good catch!

 

[Vincentponcet]

It’s actually the opposite, I’m running the AVR in preamp mode. I’m using the AVR as a processor and splitter (my next AVR will likely be a prepro). I’m feeding an Anthem MCA 325 MK2 amp. I need a class AB amp for my speakers (they have something called Stereo Dimensional Array which requires a single ended output architecture, not too be confused with RCA outs).

Movies I use an AppleTV and I’m not concerned with squeezing all the audio quality for movies (pre HDR used Kodi for bitstreaming). HTPC I use for gaming and could use for music like HQPlayer or some DSP but would have to figure out WASAPI with the DSP…

I’m still figuring out the music piece and an external DAC could be an option off the HTPC. I’d just need to have room correction with it….

That is what’s prompting my line of questioning. Overall I love to tinker so if there’s some gains, it’s not wasted money IMO.

Edit: I see where I caused confusion. I didn’t add the -> Amp in the chain. My apologies and good catch!

If you just want stereo from your PC in the AVR then just use spdif out of the htpc into the AVR.
If you are using the room correction of the AVR, then you are doing ADC / room correction / DAC. So output from the PC to a DAC to feed the AVR is useless, because that would be USB / DAC / ADC / room correction/ DAC. When using spdif between the PC and the AVR would be spdif/ room correction/ DAC.

For hqplayer, you can use asio4all, it works with all directsound inputs/outputs.

 

[Steve Dallas]

I really think you are over-thinking this. Consider these two pathways:

(Denon 4700 in preamp mode) Heos -> Audyssey -> DAC -> Peachtree Nova 300 -> Revel F206

Laptop -> Dirac Standalone -> Schiit Modius - Peachtree Nova 300 -> Revel F206

I can use either of these in my home theater. The 2nd setup has a higher SINAD DAC. Both sound the same to me except for the differences in DRC. I hear no higher noise nor distortion either way. Both sound great. For most people, around 85-90dB SINAD is beyond the envelope of hearing. Chasing the number, in my experience, causes a person to waste money. Just enjoy the music.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Totally agree. My plan would be to have EQ happen on my HTPC -> external DAC -> AVR pure direct -> external Amp (just added the amp for clarity)

Room correction is a must. So I get room
Correction and a cleaner signal

It’s just is the added complexity worth it…. Regardless, I’m interested in the measurements which could help inform a decision

As others already said. Going from a DAC into an AVR does not make sense, will not improve anything and very likely make things work.

Either go from the DAC to an external poweramp and then to the speakers.

Or leave out the external DAC altogether and only use the AVR with its RoomEQ (Audyssey).