Sinad noticeable Distraction

[WideWorldWill]

I've been hanging out on the fringes for a while now... one a very tight budget. I've been reading the Topping reviews, their testing and pricing, is interesting to me.

Just wondering what everyone's thoughts are when a Sinad score becomes low enough that it starts noticeably interfering audibly to the signal and not beyond the hearing threshold. Just seeing if I can minimize costs as much as possible. Or I guess in other words, paying for what I can hear vs paying extra for something I cannot hear.

I'm looking for a Amplifier, headphone amp and a DAC

Thanks

 

[fieldcar]

How about you find out. Take the klippel listening test. Most people, including myself, can't get much further than -39dB, compare that to most well measuring equipment surpassing a SINAD of 100dB easily.

Listening Test

www.klippel.de

 

[WideWorldWill]

Thanks! I didn't know about it.

 

[dshreter]

The suggestion to do the test is a great idea. Also, the humble Apple USB-C dac performs great, so there is no good reason to break the bank.

 

[fieldcar]

The suggestion to do the test is a great idea. Also, the humble Apple USB-C dac performs great, so there is no good reason to break the bank.

Yeah! If you're just doing IEM's or something small like the koss portapro/kph30i's , grab an apple dongle DAC! I use one at work, and love it. I could care less if the cleaning people swipe it up.

 

[antcollinet]

I'm using the relatively poorly measured soundblaster omni 5.1 (Sinad 90 at around the bottom of the orange section of the chart)

Review and Measurements of Sound Blaster Omni 5.1 DAC

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Creative Labs Sound Blaster Omni 5.1 Surround computer DAC. It is on kind loan from a member. It retails for US 89.99 but I see it on Amazon with Prime shipping for US $74.99. It is quite a bargain given the rich feature set of 5.1 channels...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I'm using a Sony AVR for an amp - no idea how well that measures, I suspect not that well. But have recently got pretty good (for me) Dali Oberon 5 speakers.

The whole lot sounds amazing, and better than anything I've previously owned - I think mainly due to the speakers. It is because of discussions here explaining how inaudible even relatively poor sinad is, that I've chosen not to upgrade DAC or AMP (I even cancelled an order for an amp, after auditioning it and being unable to hear any improvment from my AVR). I've saved around £800 as a result (I think I owe Amirm at least a small donation)

For Dac/Amp you are likely to be happy with anything from Topping for sound quality. Just buy based on features you need and price. Reserve your money for transducers (speakers and/or headphones)

 

[WideWorldWill]

I have thought about mixing it up with a older used amp and a dac

I checked the review on here of the Apple Dongle and checked the price... I couldn't believe the price and performance...

I'm thinking of getting one tomorrow just to use with my phone...

 

[DanielT]

I have thought about mixing it up with a older used amp and a dac

I checked the review on here of the Apple Dongle and checked the price... I couldn't believe the price and performance...

I'm thinking of getting one tomorrow just to use with my phone...

Anyone you have or a specific brand / model you will buy?

Tip, if you did not already know, examine what may need to be done with an old amplifier. Please note, may not need to be serviced, electronics replaced and so on.Depends on the condition. and how many hours it is used, for example

Personally, I'm a little allergic to old amplifiers that have an overly loud humming transformer. Subjectively how much you get annoyed by that sound.

Then the question is what is an old amplifier? A half a year or half a century old is, after all, a little different.

 

[WideWorldWill]

maybe used, as opposed to old. I like all the vintage stuff, but the old 70's stuff, I don't have the health to lug them around for maintenance.

Mainly Affordable, Attainable and sound good (and lightweight)... I'd be happy...

 

[DanielT]

If you buy 70s amplifiers / receivers, it is probably good if you have some knowledge and the opportunity to fix them yourself. Or have an acquaintance who can help. Paying a professional repairman by the hour can be expensive.

Although you can take a chance and buy something vintage. If it goes, it goes until it ehe no longer goes (what words of wisdom).

These ads on vintage receivers that look enticing with their vintage charm (look). Where they signal in the ad:

If you change your mind
I'm the first in line....

Take a chance on me
Come on, give me a break, will you?
Take a chance on me

.....As long as we're together (long as we're together)
Listen to some music (oh)

It is possible to get vintage cheap though (if we ignore really good performance then it can be expensive to buy vintage).... until it no longer works and you have to bring out the wallet and run down to the repairman....
....

 

[voodooless]

Just seeing if I can minimize costs as much as possible.

I really don’t see how one would do that with what kind of quality you get for the current prices. For $€£ 250 to 300 you can get a really decent DAC and headphone amp. Much cheaper will usually get you much worse, not only in terms of SINAD, but also in output power. Spend the rest on a headphone of your liking.

 

[oivavoi]

I've been hanging out on the fringes for a while now... one a very tight budget. I've been reading the Topping reviews, their testing and pricing, is interesting to me.

Just wondering what everyone's thoughts are when a Sinad score becomes low enough that it starts noticeably interfering audibly to the signal and not beyond the hearing threshold. Just seeing if I can minimize costs as much as possible. Or I guess in other words, paying for what I can hear vs paying extra for something I cannot hear.

I'm looking for a Amplifier, headphone amp and a DAC

Thanks

If you have money to spare and want to get better sound, best advice is to spend all of it on the best loudspeakers and/or headphones you can afford. Those are the big things that really matter, the rest (electronics) is about tiny details at best which often can't be heard. 60 db sinad will usually be more than ok. If you feel like it you can start chasing sinad in electronics in the future, when you have loudspeakers and headphones you know you will keep. But for starting out, focus on what really matters!

 

[DanielT]

If you have money to spare and want to get better sound, best advice is to spend all of it on the best loudspeakers and/or headphones you can afford. Those are the big things that really matter, the rest (electronics) is about tiny details at best which often can't be heard. 60 db sinad will usually be more than ok. If you feel like it you can start chasing sinad in electronics in the future, when you have loudspeakers and headphones you know you will keep. But for starting out, focus on what really matters!

Spot on! Thumbs up!

Decent with effect is nice to have in terms of amplifiers, so they are not driven into clipping. That's my view on it. Headroom is yummy. A matter of taste (and $), of course, how much effect you want. It also depends on how loud you listen to music and what music you listen to (which places different demands on the amplifier), the sensitivity of the speakers.

Vintage amp, even though it now does not seem to be WideWorldWills thing, see what Ohm an old vintage amplifier can do. General tips.
Edit:
Old amplifiers can have relatively loud humming transformers. A matter of taste, subjective how sensitive you are to it.

 

[solderdude]

I've been hanging out on the fringes for a while now... one a very tight budget. I've been reading the Topping reviews, their testing and pricing, is interesting to me.

Just wondering what everyone's thoughts are when a Sinad score becomes low enough that it starts noticeably interfering audibly to the signal and not beyond the hearing threshold. Just seeing if I can minimize costs as much as possible. Or I guess in other words, paying for what I can hear vs paying extra for something I cannot hear.

I'm looking for a Amplifier, headphone amp and a DAC

Thanks

SINAD consist of 2 aspects only.
a: THD at 1kHz
b: Noise
Both of these are measured here referenced to either 0dBFS for a DAC or referenced to a specific voltage level (2V or 4V) into a specific resistive load.

It does not say anything about the noise spectrum (white, pink or sharp noise) nor about the frequency response nor is the efficiency of the used headphone taken into consideration. This is why Amir not only publishes SINAD numbers (and ranks them) but also measures other aspects.

Consider that when SINAD would have been the deciding and all important factor Amir would simply just measure SINAD, publish the number and be done with it.

When you plan to use an IEM or very sensitive headphone look for a higher SINAD (above 100) when you want to be sure you won't be hearing a constant hiss. At least when you only plan to look at SINAD and ignore the S/N ratio and other measurements that have been done.

When you never listen loud and have insensitive headphones you are probably safe with SINAD 80.

However, it does not cost much to buy a DAC or amp (with more than enough power and good FR) with SINAD exceeding 110.
So there is no need to look for minimal values that are acceptable other than they would not offer you the desired connectivity, functionality, dimensions or looks.

Distortion below -80dB (0.01%) while listening to music (both HD and IM) will not be disturbing/distracting/noticeable at normal to loud listening levels.
Unfortunately it also depends on the frequency and type of distortion so 80 SINAD won't guarantee perfect sound under all conditions nor will 60 SINAD. Most likely devices with SINAD exceeding 100 will though.

 

[DanielT]

SINAD consist of 2 aspects only.
a: THD at 1kHz
b: Noise
Both of these are measured here referenced to either 0dBFS for a DAC or referenced to a specific voltage level (2V or 4V) into a specific resistive load.

It does not say anything about the noise spectrum (white, pink or sharp noise) nor about the frequency response nor is the efficiency of the used headphone taken into consideration. This is why Amir not only publishes SINAD numbers (and ranks them) but also measures other aspects.

Consider that when SINAD would have been the deciding and all important factor Amir would simply just measure SINAD, publish the number and be done with it.

When you plan to use an IEM or very sensitive headphone look for a higher SINAD (above 100) when you want to be sure you won't be hearing a constant hiss. At least when you only plan to look at SINAD and ignore the S/N ratio and other measurements that have been done.

When you never listen loud and have insensitive headphones you are probably safe with SINAD 80.

However, it does not cost much to buy a DAC or amp (with more than enough power and good FR) with SINAD exceeding 110.
So there is no need to look for minimal values that are acceptable other than they would not offer you the desired connectivity, functionality, dimensions or looks.

Distortion below -80dB (0.01%) while listening to music (both HD and IM) will not be disturbing/distracting/noticeable at normal to loud listening levels.
Unfortunately it also depends on the frequency and type of distortion so 80 SINAD won't guarantee perfect sound under all conditions nor will 60 SINAD. Most likely devices with SINAD exceeding 100 will though.

Headroom SINAD, THD, noice, sufficient power regarding amplifier, and so in relation to the wallet and liking in terms of Hifi, sound reproduction. In any case, I think that it is a fun thing in Hifi to think about.

80 dB SINAD seems to be a recurring level, which many are wondering if it is enough. That is the question. ..or 100 dB or more that you are talking about. Maybe.Appropriate levels , you have to figure that out. Can only be done by trying it out.
With that said, it is very interesting when others share, as you do now Solderdude, personal experiences. If it is now your personal experiences? What do you have as a level, minimum requirements for your own part?

You can practice hearing deviations (noise, distortion, frequency response). In another forum, one of its members is called the distortion sniffer/hunter.He has a devilish ability to find deviations (he has all his life worked professionally with acoustics and electronics). He have participated in many serious blind tests so I know he not just talk bull when he when he says, states that he can detect on level X (do not remember what he said, low as hell it was anyway).

I myself have no golden ears (definitely not compared to the mentioned distortion hunter). Prefect .... for my wallet.

Edit:
Then of course THD and amplifiers, we have the not so small detail to weigh into the equation. Distortion and speakers.
Frequency response in DAC and normally sensible amplifier basically straight. Frequency response and speakers ... well ..

It boils as usual, down to, put the gunpowder on the speakers.

 

[solderdude]

In practice it is always about listening levels and types of distortion.
One should not forget that the transducers and recordings are the limiting factors.
Then there is the factor whether one is bothered by -60dB distortion in certain bands or if one doesn't care at all.
This is separate from the 100's to 1000's times lower distortion of decent electronics.

My personal detection limits (with certain types of tests) may well be lower than what I am bothered with enjoying music.

One can buy DACs and amps that perform well below any even theoretical limits in the $ 100.- range which is kind of an assurance that whatever gremlins one hears cannot come from that equipment but is either in the recording or transducers (or room in case of speakers).
This brings piece of mind to me and do not need to worry about that.

In the end its about enjoying recorded music.

For me an old FiiO, PC + E30 and UMC204HD + homemade amps and speakers (or a few headphones) is more than enough to enjoy music.
Good speakers and headphones is the most essential part of it.

 

[abdo123]

The Loxje D30 is too good for its price, no need to compromise on anything.

 

[DanielT]

One should not forget that the transducers and recordings are the limiting factors.

Shit in, shit out

My mediocre, or somewhere middle of the road Hifi system and I take my CD player with good uncompressed music with some CDs vs "High end" solution that is fed with some really compressed junk. I wonder who would be the winner of that battle?

 

[solderdude]

IME:
Crappy recordings (often popular music) can sound 'better' (as in more enjoyable/pleasant, not technically better) on somewhat crappy or colored reproduction chains than on high quality gear.

Excellent recordings usually sound better on higher quality equipment.
Higher quality recordings on higher quality equipment may make crappy recordings sound a bit crappy but at least you'll know the recording was crappy.

So for me higher quality transducers and decent gear is the best solution which does mean crap in is crap out but also lovely in is lovely out.

 

[DanielT]

Took from another forum regardning headphones:

Headphones are hopeless in terms of frequency with huge deviations and require equalization to be truly sound balanced.

I do not understand at all how to give high marks to passive headphones, regardless of principle or price. I usually speculate that listening to headphones means such an unnatural experience that you easily lose your temper in terms of judgment. As an example, it can be mentioned that better in-ears often have 10-15 dB broadband for a high level around 5-8 kHz, followed by +/- 10 dB narrowband over 10 kHz. Over-ears are better, but even here the deviations are very large and would never be tolerated for speakers. In addition, in principle, all passive headphones lack a low base.

The tricky thing, however, is that only the listener can make the treble in particular because the ear canals (and in this respect the less important outer ears) differ enormously between different individuals.

faktiskt.io • Visa tråd - Inställning av laptop för bästa ljud

Solution EQ.

Edit:

There is a report online about it, among other things. Can not put in a link so google on:

Transfer characteristics of headphones measured on human ears

Møller, Henrik; Hammershøi, Dorte; Jensen, Clemen Boje; Sørensen, Michael Friis
Published in:
Journal of the Audio Engineering Society