SINAD Audio Files, Please!

[RayDunzl]

Your taking all the fun out of it Ray.

That's why I had to create the more-fun-than-a-new-car-in-a-hailstorm Shoutometer™, for, uh, some perspective.

 

[MRC01]

...
Turning the preamp wide open produces no audible nor in-room measurable noise.
A -90db (1bit) shaped dithered 16bit tone is plainly, though quietly, audible at full volume, without apparent noise, so I'm gonna not worry about it. ...

Your test is actually more demanding than needed, because full volume may be so loud it's unlistenable.

Take a track that has pink noise or some similar full spectrum sound recorded at max digital level just below clipping. The next track would be that -90 dB shaped dithered pure tone, say at 3 kHz for maximum audibility. The next track would be the same thing at -89 dB, then at -88, etc.... Set the maximum volume that you can play the first track (which on most systems will be less than full volume). Now at that same volume, play the second track. You might not even hear the tone. Hit next until you can hear the tone. That's your usable dynamic range.

 

[garbulky]

You could do what you are describing. In a sense when I posted the 8th generation files you were doing that as noise and SINAD decreased with each generation. I could barely detect the difference blind on the 8th generation, but not 6th or 4th. And even then it was a ripple in FR I heard I am pretty sure. If you listen to those and hear the 8th I could make other generations available.

Edit to add, the 1st gen of that had SINAD of 108 db (March Audio DAC+Zen Tour ADC). The final 8th generation had a SINAD of 86.4 db just for reference.

Oh cool! So I'm trying to understand. What you are saying is to listen to see if I hear any difference to those files right? Gotcha. Also the 1st gen is that the original digital source or is that the first ADC?

 

[garbulky]

I'd also like to point out that with this ADC comparison I am NOT talking about test tones. I'm talking about music files, just regular things that we would recognize as music people listen to. Though music varies, they do sound significantly different from pure test tones. Test tones played super loudly are easier to discern differences. I think TEST TONES have been already well explored. So I'm most interested in the ability to differentiate various levels of performance for music.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Oh cool! So I'm trying to understand. What you are saying is to listen to see if I hear any difference to those files right? Gotcha. Also the 1st gen is that the original digital source or is that the first ADC?

The 1st gen numbers were just for reference. I posted the 8th gen files and a digital original. Though I included a couple tones for setting levels and checking noise build up the downloads are music only.

If you never tried it the files are still up to be downloaded. Just don't open the spoiler with the answers.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-choose-the-8th-generation-digital-copy.6827/

 

[RayDunzl]

So I'm most interested in the ability to differentiate various levels of performance for music.

Good luck.

Here, as compared to, perhaps, a pure sine wave with the same fundamental, is a single note on a bass guitar (electrical signal)

What a mess.

I know, that's the timbre of the guitar, and I certainly don't want anything messing with that...

*every time you pick the string you get a new and measurably different set of harmonics. I had to try many times before I got the second harmonic level below the fundamental so that the "distortion" measure would be less than 100%, or not interpret the 2nd harmonic as the fundamental.

 

[garbulky]

Good luck.

Here, as compared to, perhaps, a pure sine wave with the same fundamental, is a single note on a bass guitar (electrical signal)

View attachment 38946

What a mess.

I know, that's the timbre of the guitar, and I certainly don't want anything messing with that...

*every time you pick the string you get a new and measurably different set of harmonics. I had to try many times before I got the second harmonic level below the fundamental so that the "distortion" measure would be less than 100%, or not interpret the 2nd harmonic as the fundamental.

Maybe I typed that poorly. When I meant "performance for music" I meant how does distortions in SINAD affect what music sounds like when we listen to it? At what point does it sound different in a significant manner - for music. If I'm not mistaken music has a masking effect and that masking effect is a real thing. So if we listen to music then we are indeed experiencing this "veil" that hides some distortions from us. I wasnt trying to say the harmonics naturally present in music are the distortions.

 

[RayDunzl]

Maybe I typed that poorly. When I meant "performance for music" I meant how does distortions in SINAD affect what music sounds like when we listen to it?

Maybe my answer is dumb.

SINAD is not a "simple" measure. It is a combination of "this and that". You can have more this and less that, or more that and less this, for the same SINAD value.

Noise and harmonic distortion are not the same things.

At what point does it sound different in a significant manner - for music.

Nobody knows. It would depend to some degree on 'what kind of music". Chruch bells and organs are rather pure to start with, Metal Thrash* (did I invent a new genre?) is not.

Full transparency is "guaranteed" (so to speak) with 120dB SINAD for skeptics.

I don't acheive that.

Even if I did, electrically, the speaker distortions and ambient room noise would spoil it..

If I'm not mistaken music has a masking effect and that masking effect is a real thing.

That's right. And, to me, music is a whole bunch of distortions itself.

Blowing on a beer bottle gave the closest I could generate to a pure tone. A Beer bottle band would produce rather undistorted tones, though maybe with a high level of (blowing) noise.

But listening to the beer bottle band would get old, no interesting timbre (distortions of the fundamentals).

So if we listen to music then we are indeed experiencing this "veil" that hides some distortions from us. I wasnt trying to say the harmonics naturally present in music are the distortions.

It's true.

You don't hear the faucet drip listening to Led Zeppelin.

You might not even hear the doorbell.

Or the loud knocking that follows that.



Ok, I quit.

*discovers I did not, but the prper term seems to be Thrash Metal

 

[garbulky]

Maybe my answer is dumb.

SINAD is not a "simple" measure. It is a combination of "this and that". You can have more this and less that, or more that and less this, for the same SINAD value.

Noise and harmonic distortion are not the same things.

View attachment 38952




Nobody knows. It would depend to some degree on 'what kind of music". Chruch bells and organs are rather pure to start with, Metal Thrash* (did I invent a new genre?) is not.

Full transparency is "guaranteed" (so to speak) with 120dB SINAD for skeptics.

I don't acheive that.

Even if I did, electrically, the speaker distortions and ambient room noise would spoil it..





That's right. And, to me, music is a whole bunch of distortions itself.

Blowing on a beer bottle gave the closest I could generate to a pure tone. A Beer bottle band would produce rather undistorted tones, though maybe with a high level of (blowing) noise.

But listening to the beer bottle band would get old, no interesting timbre (distortions of the fundamentals).





It's true.

You don't hear the faucet drip listening to Led Zeppelin.

You might not even hear the doorbell.

Or the loud knocking that follows that.



Ok, I quit.

*discovers I did not, but the prper term seems to be Thrash Metal

WHAT WAS THAT? DID YOU HEAR SOMETHING?!
Lol.
Thanks for the explanation. You are right music is not one thing but a variety of things. Music can simply be bells or somebody rapping without instruments or something complex like a choir set to a backing track of an orchestra. Therefore it IS hard to quantify what people's real experiences are with music. However since I assume most of the use for this gear is music related, I think any data is better than no data, as long as we keep it consistent.
Though people well versed in electronics can understand things like SNR and SINAD and THD and value its effects. I think this is a great way for the less well-versed individuals to get a real world understanding of what these measurements mean to them and how much importance to put on them. I'm not knocking great measuring products. But that doesn't mean there aren't other things to focus on - like features, size, looks, or even just how it makes them feel.

In the future I'm going to need a a nice sounding balanced analog preamp for a Schiit Ygdrassil. The DC-1 has a really nice sounding analog preamp but its single ended and I particularly want XLR connections for aesthetics and to preserve the balanced signal. The XMC-1 is a multichannel preamp which measures quite a bit worse than the DC-1 but it is a balanced analog preamp. If it sounds equally good despite measuring good, it would be a good buy for me.

 

[JohnYang1997]

https://www.klippel.de