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Simple Price to Performance (Cost Per Preference Point) Table based on MZKM Preference Source Data

stevenswall

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Can't figure out how to post a table with BBC code, HTML, Wiki, etc. so had to settle for a screenshot.

Notable speakers: The C-Note on the cheap end, KEF for some of the cheapest per point over 5 points, and holy crap, that Genelec is expensive.

No idea how much better something is based on this so take everything with a grain of salt. Is a speaker that scores a 6 twice as good as a 3, or several times better? Diminishing returns?

1590097067648.png


Full data (I wish there were a single button that would get to this on the forum. Maybe a header on the reviews section.)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...4i_eE1JS-JQYSZy7kCQZMKtRnjTOn578fYZPJ/pubhtml
 
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Vintage57

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Can you sort by score and repost
‘thanks
 
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stevenswall

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I think sweet spot is around $2000. I feel after that point, the performance of the room almost completely dominates my subjective impressions.

Harman tests show that speakers make little difference in sighted stereo listening once you get past a certain point. It's chasing the last 5%.

For me the sweet spot is whatever can play the bass I want, and has a flat enough response that I don't notice issues, and no port chuffing, and little to no hiss... And it must have a coincident driver or be acoustically coincident.

A Kali Audio IN-8 v2 that does to 30hz flat anechoically and is a bit flatter would do that for me, or the Devialet Phantom 900 which is about $2500 a pair on eBay. Just a horrible app and connectivity. Might try them again sometime if I can find the installer version.
 

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For me the sweet spot is whatever can play the bass I want, and has a flat enough response that I don't notice issues, and no port chuffing, and little to no hiss... And it must have a coincident driver or be acoustically coincident.

A Kali Audio IN-8 v2 that does to 30hz flat anechoically and is a bit flatter would do that for me, or the Devialet Phantom 900 which is about $2500 a pair on eBay. Just a horrible app and connectivity. Might try them again sometime if I can find the installer version.

Speaker bass output below 100hz doesn't matter much to me, because I'll get better sound quality across wider listening area with subwoofers.
 

stren

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Do you happen to have the same data but based on the + sub scores. Also worth noting that even though the MSRP for LS50's maybe 1500, they are so frequently on sale that an ASR member is unlikely to pay anywhere close to that for them. Same with the r162's with their frequent sales to 1/3 the price.
 
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Rusty Shackleford

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I wonder if some crowd-sourced “best deal” column and best deal price per point column should be added?

The LSiM703, for example, used to be $1,400 a pair, but can now be had for $400 a pair. When it’s measured, I’m sure it would score high, at least at the latter price.
 
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stevenswall

stevenswall

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Speaker bass output below 100hz doesn't matter much to me, because I'll get better sound quality across wider listening area with subwoofers.

Yeah, if you have subs definitely go that route. For me Genelec subs are out of the question right now, but I'm sure I could incorporate other brands similarly with a MiniDSP. The 8260 I like too though because of less roll off when off axis with the large waveguide. It doesn't lose as much volume as The Ones when I'm extremely off axis, and seems smoother than some of them too. (8351, 8361A, but I think the 8351B model is as smooth or smoother.)

Ultimately I'd love subs in the rear corners of my room and something like Dirac bass management to use them with my Genelecs in the front.
 

MZKM

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Do you happen to have the same data but based on the + sub scores. Also worth noting that even though the MSRP for LS50's maybe 1500, they are so frequently on sale that an ASR member is unlikely to pay anywhere close to that for them. Same with the r162's with their frequent sales to 1/3 the price.
You can view my bubble chart by clicking on my signature and going to “Performance : Price w/ sub”.

The Pioneer, ELAC, and KEF R3 really stand out in their price brackets.
 
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stevenswall

stevenswall

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You can view my bubble chart by clicking on my signature and going to “Performance : Price w/ sub”.

Oh sorry dude, totally forgot to credit you. Made this on my break at work from your signature.
 

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Yeah, if you have subs definitely go that route. For me Genelec subs are out of the question right now, but I'm sure I could incorporate other brands similarly with a MiniDSP. The 8260 I like too though because of less roll off when off axis with the large waveguide. It doesn't lose as much volume as The Ones when I'm extremely off axis, and seems smoother than some of them too. (8351, 8361A, but I think the 8351B model is as smooth or smoother.)

Ultimately I'd love subs in the rear corners of my room and something like Dirac bass management to use them with my Genelecs in the front.

I wouldn't recommend Genelec subs unless you want to use GLM. Much better performance from internet direct companies like SVS, PSA, JTR, Rythmik, Seaton.

I think that Ones speakers will have smoother spinoramas than 8260. If you want to keep arguing about that, you should send your speaker to Amir. Make a thread if you need funding.
 
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stevenswall

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I think that Ones speakers will have smoother spinoramas than 8260. If you want to keep arguing about that, you should send your speaker to Amir. Make a thread if you need funding.

Genelec publishes the off axis response. The 8351(A) seems to be more bumpy horizontally. The 8351B certainly improves things, but then the 8361 ruins it again and has less smooth off axis response. Here's an example with the original "The Ones" model vs the 8260 predecessor. Vertically though The Ones certainly outperform the 8260, though I like how compressed the lines are for the 8260 keeping more of the volume off axis instead of rolling off so much, though the latter could be desirable depending on the situation as well.

Maybe after seeing the results of my Pioneer RM07 thread I'll start one. Cost prohibitive to buy the packaging and ship it right now. Original boxes they were sent to me in I don't trust to send them in again.

Really curious how the 8361A compares to 8351B and how much bass extension counts for since it seems like the "with ideal subwoofer" scores are significantly higher and I'd say the 8260 is half way there. Maybe it or an 8351B could break the 7 barrier, hopefully around a 7.5.

All that said, the 8341 you have looks better than what's below with smoother off axis response, and if I could get a used pair for half off I'd go far that and subs as you suggest.


Screenshot_20200519-100414_Drive.png
 
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stevenswall

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That was my first thought, too.

I wonder if we've stumbled on any gems yet though other than the Genelec.

The 8341 is amazing, and also expensive.

The Devialet Phantom Reactor I could see really changing things up. $2500 a pair on eBay, much more bass extension which should boost the score, I'm just not sure if really, really wide dispersion is favored by the algorithm or not. The thing sounds close to a radiating sphere at many frequencies.
 

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Genelec publishes the off axis response. The 8351(A) seems to be more bumpy horizontally. The 8351B certainly improves things, but then the 8361 ruins it again and has less smooth off axis response. Here's an example with the original "The Ones" model vs the 8260 predecessor. Vertically though The Ones certainly outperform the 8260, though I like how compressed the lines are for the 8260 keeping more of the volume off axis instead of rolling off so much, though the latter could be desirable depending on the situation as well.

Maybe after seeing the results of my Pioneer RM07 thread I'll start one. Cost prohibitive to buy the packaging and ship it right now. Original boxes they were sent to me in I don't trust to send them in again.

Really curious how the 8361A compares to 8351B and how much bass extension counts for since it seems like the "with ideal subwoofer" scores are significantly higher and I'd say the 8260 is half way there. Maybe it or an 8351B could break the 7 barrier, hopefully around a 7.5.

All that said, the 8341 you have looks better than what's below with smoother off axis response, and if I could get a used pair for half off I'd go far that and subs as you suggest.


View attachment 64739

That's not a spinorama. Given your long ramblings on the 705P thread and elsewhere, strong insistence on superior 8260 measurements to everything else, and unwillingness to send your speakers in for measurements, my conclusion is that you're just trolling.
 
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stevenswall

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That's not a spinorama. Given your long ramblings on the 705P thread and elsewhere, strong insistence on superior 8260 measurements to everything else, and unwillingness to send your speakers in for measurements, my conclusion is that you're just trolling.

What's not a spinorama?

Screenshot_20200522-002704_Google.png


Sure, there's not a continuous color transitioning plot like Amirm can create, which would be great, but we're talking about measurements that show horizontal and vertical dispersion by the same manufacturer. Seems fair to me.

As far as not sending in my speakers, I've offered in another thread, and called Genelec to see how much their boxes were so that I could protect them better than how they were sent to me.

My apologies that I don't have $190 for the box plus shipping and insurance.

As far as the measurements being generally superior, typically the following things are mentioned, and I'm open to being wrong if I'm missing something:

-Accuracy on axis is +/-1dB vs +/-1.5dB for The Ones.
-Bass extension measurements show things flat to 28 hz which is lower than The Ones, or JBL measurements of the 7 series.
-Horizontal dispersion measurements are smoother off axis than the speaker that came after it (the 8351)

Concerning your 8341:
-Vertical dispersion is significantly improved compared to the 8260.
-Horizontal dispersion is smoother than the 8351 or 8361.

Your speakers are great, and there are probably other measurable ways I haven't looked at that they are superior to the 8260. Hopefully that doesn't come off as trolling or close minded, I genuinely like what you post here and on reddit, and it's great your speakers scored higher than any others here.

My frustration is with two things I perceive as underlying assumptions:

-JBL/Harman speakers are the best because they did the research. (Genelec seems to have beat JBL here at their own game, I'd like JBL to stop resting on their laurels.)

-Newer speakers are better. (Which as a general, all encompassing statement is wrong, as can be seen comparing the dispersion of your speakers to the 8361, the latter if which is more ragged off axis. Could be better stated as "this newer model can go louder," or in the case of the M2 that many got mad about, clarifying and saying "this speaker goes louder, and it goes so much louder in the bass region that from a practical standpoint it has more bass extension than a Genelec 8260 even though the latter has measurements that look like they'd indicate the opposite.)

I can live with that last part, and am glad it was explained.

Part of this attitude though stems from "experts" or people with experience not being aware of other options and trying to inform me in their ignorance.

-A 32 bit OS can only address 3.5 to 4GB of RAM... And then I as a teenager proceed to use 8GB of RAM loading Ubuntu Linux with PAE onto a computer and it tells me it can use 128GB of RAM.

-You have to frequently defragment your hard drive, it's just how they work... No, it's a software issue and can be minimized using partitions formatted to NTFS, EXT4, etc.

-Freezing a steak ruins it and if you don't let it rest all the juices will leak out. Kansas State University found frozen steaks to be 10% more tender, and Food Labs noted they brown easier when frozen without frost.

-Coffee is bitter and acidic. Just the way it is... No, that person just hasn't had cold brew and doesn't know how the two compare.

-You can't get bass out of small speakers... Typically these people haven't heard a Phantom nearfield, or dismiss it because it's a "lifestyle product" instead of conceding the point that it goes lower than anything similarly sized.

Prove something and I'll believe you or concede the point. Arguing general points and what is "better" (which I do when something isn't settled,) is just banter and entertainment in part. Sure it gets heated sometimes, but that's how things go when things aren't settled, and sometimes when they are.
 

tifune

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Notable speakers: The C-Note on the cheap end, KEF for some of the cheapest per point over 5 points, and holy crap, that Genelec is expensive.

Not sure how much effort it takes, but maybe a fairer comparison would be a table for active and another for passive?
 

beefkabob

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Interesting, but it's a house of cards. Assumptions built upon assumptions then charted. The connection with reality is too tenuous.
 
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